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Z>P?
page: 1 2
I was looking at the map statistics at PGTour.net and noticed how on almost every map that has been played alot (does not include signal or nightlight because they've only been played on less than 40 times), zerg has a winning percentage over protoss. And even those few maps with a protoss winning percentage are only greater by less than .4.

Because so many maps reflect this, could this possibly mean that zerg players are better than toss players at least on PGTour?
2006, 05, 30 18:45
on most maps, zerg is considered slightly stronger than P. the most listed reasons:

-scouting is hard for protoss (lings in front of base), unless doing cors-builds
-zerg can even FE with quite a late pool without _too_ much danger.
-protoss techs are very slow and expansive, but they're necessary. the problem is the black-and-white effect: psi/arch owns mutas, but fails against lurkers (or at least, suboptimal)...robo on the other hand is GG against spire build. now zerg can easily switch tech with only 1 building, protoss has to get another expansive tech :/
-zerg's general agility
-most maps must be quite open to make PvT playable - but this helps Z a lot for sourrounding
2006, 05, 30 18:51
Yeah, but I think that in general, low level Protoss players just cannot play against same level Zerg players. It takes a good understanding of the game to figure it out.

So I'd say that in general, Z players > P players, I don't think it's all the maps' fault. But I did notice that like 15 of the PGT maps have Z>P with at least 54% or more winning percentage.
2006, 05, 30 19:08
"-zerg can even FE with quite a late pool without _too_ much danger."

if the protoss doesnt know how to play ya.

otherwise no.

theres a number of reasons for the "imbalance". i think a large part of it could be that for most protoss their pvp/pvt are at a higher level than their pvz, since pvp and pvt are much easier to learn since in pvt you have obs everywhere, and pvp is just a mirror matchup, so a protoss gets to a higher level with their pvp/pvt than they their pvz is, which results in protoss players playing vs. zergs that are much better than they are.

if i remember correctly, on the most popularly played maps on pgt terran has a similar winning advantage vs. zerg.

also, for the most part about the whole map being open or tight is completely stupid. look at sattarchasm, which found protoss having trouble vs. terran and also having a lot of trouble vs. zerg statistically. there are much greater balance factors than simply the openness of the map, and it is hardly an excuse for any map imbalance that may occur.

as another example, someone has commented that paths the size of that of lost temple are too tight, and at the same time i (and i believe most people would agree) think that lost temple favors zerg over protoss. its about time map makers stop complaining about issues like this and really step up to the plate (or the chopping board for that matter)
2006, 05, 30 20:42
to aiurz: you can 12 hatch, 11 pool no problem man... unless you get proxied or something.

it tends to be protoss > zerg at lower levels because as zerg to be effective you need to
1) micro mutas
2) burrow /unburrow lurkers
3) control large amounts of units due to zerglings

all protoss needs to do is storm and attack so generally toss owns lower levels

higher levels are much different.
in B+ - Ultimate rank i have seen a lot of people complain about PvZ and just switch MU to ZvZ or TvZ

its not necessarily an unbalanced matchup, its just that PGT maps in general have
A) MANY MANY EXPOS so zerg can just mass expos aka sauron zerg
B) VERY SAFE EXPOS which allows for an ez double gas.
C) VERY FAR BASES which makes a 12 hatch 11 pool standard which is retarded...

ive been saying this for a while btw
2006, 05, 30 21:12
y stop with those safe expos plz... i really dislike them
2006, 05, 30 21:15
"to aiurz: you can 12 hatch, 11 pool no problem man... unless you get proxied or something."
unless the positions are far away a 12hatch at nat 11 pool will get hurt a lot by a 9/10 gateway, not to mention builds like 7gate 12forge.

flo makes it sound like zergs can just 12hatch at nat every game and not even have to worry about the protoss in the normal course of events, when its not at all like that.
2006, 05, 30 22:10
well 9/10 gates leaves p with a very bad eco as well. which often screws due to the late tech. if z manages to get a sunken the natural is almost secure
2006, 05, 30 22:14
and what all basically all Pgtour maps? long distances. gl trying to a 9/10 gate against me when the map isnt paranoid android
2006, 05, 30 23:35
9/10 gate really is not very strong against a 12hatch/11pool. Sure, you can get 1 zeal there harassing their nat, but once those 8 zerglings pop out, you're running back to your base. It's because every single map is a corner map now. That's why zeal rush on Blade Storm is so easy.

For example, I'm a C level Protoss player, and I played uT)Machine aka Machine.tQ who is probably a B+ level Zerg player. I beat him two out of three games easily on Blade Storm with a zeal rush. It's because the mains aren't in the corners, they're a bit out of the corners, and the naturals are close together.

But on a corners map, PvZ harass is almost useless because of the distance. And notice that a lot of PGT maps are corner maps. I'm not saying that PGT has to get "new and balanced maps"... rather, Protoss players in general, at a medium skilled level need to learn how to play PvZ. PvP and PvT are theoretically easy, because you know exactly what to build the whole time. Mass zeals and goons. PvZ you have to have the right mix of units at the right time, and different units depending on your opponent's build order, of which Z has a lot choices.
2006, 05, 31 03:17
yes, and in addition, scouting is harder in early game. Illusion was a countermap to "long corner distance" btw
2006, 05, 31 12:29
I agree with what most here said. Both maps and player ability are a factor. My brother, who is a pretty good protoss player, plays just as well against zerg than the other races. He says that in PvZ, timing and experience are extremely important and just fast clicking will not win the game for you. That might explain the problems many toss players have in pvz.

On the other hand, all those macro maps with huge distances favor zerg some more I think. Modern maps have a ridicolous number of expansions, that favors zerg some more.
2006, 05, 31 13:56
Just look at Reach games he wins most his matches vs zerg, you need to know how to use templars storms alot to counter lurkers, and always have alot of detectors, with every force you send out.

modified by king of 8 plr maps
2006, 06, 01 00:36
yep, now we balanced PvZ, great!
it is so simple, just add some more observers and storm lurkers. luckily, we detected it after 8years.
2006, 06, 01 12:21
It be hard game, if your toss vs a good zerg.
If you see Reach, & Nalra theres best Pro toss player now playing.

I dont wanna go in to all details, becasue it depends on your oponents and what they do.
Most games i see reach or NalRa, how they win is they play toss fast expo, forge, gate, units they mostly make are alot zelots and arcons, mixed in with templars with a few detectors with very little goons. Reason zerg hard to defeate is simply because of sunkens, good toss they micro move those units really good, they use attack retreat alot. to win as toss you need to stop zerg expanding thats how nalRa and reach win, they keep hitting them on every expand, while toss tries take all expands.

Just watch reach or Nalra its too much for me to explain it all.
Theres alot more to it, like when to use reavers, overloard hunting.

But toss vs zerg its zerg got advantage, the winning move is to cut money supply to zerg.
Thats what Ive learned about zerg vs toss.
I study toss strategy myself, thats race I use.
Though im really rusty at game because i dont play as much now, but I watch alot pro gamers.

You cant balance zerg vs toss, they polar races, one is fast at building units other is slowest at building units, zerg can change strategy fast while toss is slower, and if zerg got tons sunkens its almost imposibble to break threw.

Theres a reason pro player use zelots and templars, arcons, they build faster then goons.

modified by king of 8 plr maps
2006, 06, 01 22:53
the main reason is that goons suck :O

Anyway, this discussion and leading anywhere. Even the best toss players in the world do not have more than 50% winning rate against equally skilled zerg players, I think slight zerg advantages in most maps are a fact, but if you try to fix that on a ground map, the other MU will probably look just horrible balance wise.
2006, 06, 01 23:33
Goons are good for early game if you play vs terran for vultures, so goons are mixed in more vs terrain threw out game, Vs zerg goons are alot less.

Well Blizzard wont be making this old game anymore balance then it is

modified by king of 8 plr maps
2006, 06, 01 23:51
i disagree... i have a build fast expo into mass goons with obs/reavers and it really rapes
2006, 06, 01 23:58
I never seen a pro toss win a pro zerg using all mass goons with reavers. upload a replay i wanna see this.

modified by king of 8 plr maps
2006, 06, 02 05:02
AuRevoir (POS) def ToT)SEn( Luna.
Almost pure goons.
2006, 06, 02 06:13
well its tough to win with just goons/reavers you need good micro. i also recommend a couple sairs later if you do this build to help kill mass mutas.
2006, 06, 02 18:00
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