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Forum - main
PvZ Fix Idea
page: 1 2 3 4
spinesheath
I hope you don't consider me one of those noobs you mentioned... I am aware of the fact that you have to change your strat according to your enemy's actions. But still, the 4 marines, 1 tank, vult w/ mines build is very versatile and especially suitable for maps such as luna where you can't wall anyways.
2006, 09, 10 13:13
lnept
no...i said thats why you face it mostly at the D levels and maybe C-.

upper levels dont bother they just do 1 fac expo into 6-8 fac pump
2006, 09, 10 16:00
Cosmi
I've been ironing for two hours, wondering about various (non SC related) ideas and it stimulated my creative thinking, so I've got something to say *in* the topic.

Two things, that could help balancing PvZ:
1. Gas node requiring more than 3 (3,05) workers - I've already used that in my map (2)Inca. It is nothing for toss to use 2 more probes there, but it hurts zerg a little with their limited number of drones. Although it could also hurt zerg in ZvT

2. Instead of 8 patches of 1500, we could use for example 12 of 1000 - that would not change the total number of minerals so it wouldn't strongly induce macro oriented game. Zerg doesn't use 8 patches with full potential, so it would help only toss; but again, it helps also terran in ZvT. I guess it could also sthrenghten terr in TvP a little bit.
Another issue is where we should put more patches. I think we should leave main as it is; probably we could change nat, but it's quite risky. Although if we add more patches in more open expos, effect could be very good:
a) it would not encourage turtling;
b) taking vulnerable expos would make more sense, as you would wait a lot shorter to have your invested resources back - it could lead to faster and more dynamic game (as if SC wasn't superdynamic now;-) );
c) terran rarely has much more bases than main and nat, so most of their bases wouldn't be affected; so ZvT matchup is only little affected, it also helps P in PvT;
d) it wouln't encourage overcannoning, because of short time before expo uses up - and people say that toss wastes mins in cannons:-).


What do you think?
modified by Cosmi
2006, 09, 11 02:41
NastyMarine
interesting, although u need some play testing.. Other than that, pretty good, ill try to incorporate some of the ideas into my new upcoming map ideas
2006, 09, 11 03:46
Nightmarjoo
12 blocks of 1000 each would allow p to use that up much faster than use up 8/9 of 1500 each, because their probes mine what would normall be unminable at first ( :) I'm trying to make sense), z usually takes longer mining their main anyway, adding more blocks with the same amount of workers will make it take longer to mine, so they will have a flow of minerals longer than protoss will. Since z can expo whenever they want to (more or less, I'm not getting into specifics) they can counter p's initial faster mining by taking the map the way they always do. Z will have its main (or nat, whatever you add blocks to) longer as well as whatever it takes; z will have a huge increase in gross profits as they will gain more. P will mine out its main sooner and will be forced to expo at a possibly inconvenient time.
:) essentially to restate that, imo adding more blocks with the same amount of minerals in one base will help z and hurt p.

p would have to expo at a new time, they would have to get used to a different gameplay beat (Here's hoping you understand what I'm saying, I think it's hard to put in words :) ); that of course could just be part of the pvz playing revolution :D



Also, I think you vastly underestimate how much that will help t. In tvz t uses cheap (mostly) quick to build units, ie. marines. With a boost in economy over a short period of time they will have many more units very quickly. T could probably 4rax off their main (or 8rax off their nat or something). Having such a high number of extra units they could expo more and reap the benefits of other expos with the protection of their high unit count, while harassing/containing/or just plain fighting with their other units.
Or, they can simply try for a quick win by dominating z with their higher numbers. Lurkers will be completely ineffective in low numbers, and in high numbers fairly insignificant because t can replace its lost units faster than usual, not to mention they will have more to lose. Muta harass will be hard against expos because t could afford to set aside more units for defense while playing agressively, which would limit muta harass to say the supply lines from t's base to their armies, but if t attacks someone who rushed mutas won't have the high enough lurker count (I guess they could just make more sunks, but that would encourage a contain which is a no-no if z needs to out expo t more than usual) to beat it.

This is of course theory crafting, I don't know exactly how that will work in actuality. I'd like feedback on this as it took a lot of thinking, but I'm just one person.
2006, 09, 12 21:58
lnept
by the way nightmarjoo, off a standard 8 mineral map like memory cell, i can do a 7 barracks, so on a 12 mineral map with 1000 i could probably do 8 in a short burst off main(all or nothing)

so 4 is really not a big deal :P
2006, 09, 12 23:28
spinesheath
I agree that the new timing for the protoss expansion might cause problems. But I disagree that this mineral distribution would help zerg.
Zerg would either play a 12-drone at main and whatever number at nat style, mining off their resources earlier than usually as well. And even if zerg played 9-drone at main, their minerals won't last longer, since they mine at the same speed as usually and have the same overall amount as on 8x1500. Well, if they mined off 9 of the 12 blocks completely and then the other 3 blocks, the resources would last longer, but 3 blocks of minerals don't give a decent income, and the income is reduced quite early.
2006, 09, 13 12:56
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