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Last update for (4)Chameleon : 2006, 05, 11 22:46
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
1178 (4)Chameleon 128*128Bill3073.4final

The map has been rated 105 times and got a total of 361 points
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You can rate the map here. Chose a grade between 10 (best) and 0 (worst).
Comments:   GMCS (1 elements)


lnept
liked the name Apsides better..

its a pretty cool map but i doubt anyone will play it because its SO different.

protoss would have to play base because of the 2 entrances. fast expo is dangerous yet its so close lol
PsychoTEMPlar
I played a few games on it, it's pretty cool. Possibility of going for the second gas while remaining largely in your base is neat, however the gas issue becomes very apparent then =)
modified by PsychoTEMPlar
flothefreak
very cool mainbase/natural setup
except of the strange center, that map has a great style. the best thing of bill so far imo
ScoutWBF
I'm wondering why nobody fucks around about the straight lines like you usually do.

I think the main-Natural thing is cool but the rest of the map is so uninteresting
lnept
its not noticing is why i think. on his map enmity it is just real noticeable because its so plain. you are bound to have straightness if you use bridges.
flothefreak
the straight lines don't hit so much here.
LGI-
"the best thing of bill so far imo"

True.

I only don't like the position of purps wide ramp, but it's hard to fix...
---_---;
Good map i like it ...
--v mOsQ
really bad map -.-
Antares
Cameleon is the best hungarian protoss player (and the best player also :P)

about the map: I don't fancy with those expansions that are separated from the center, terran could easily take them as there is no place to flank..

i like the map-conception, although i hate the rocks-design ^^
MillenniumArmy
The middle could use some better decoration. Should be jungle/ruin mix instead of just plain ugly rocky grounds =/
Arden(WoF)
Well, Rocky ground alone ensures a maxium amount of non buildable terrain. Keep in mind that pro map makers focus 95% of the map on balance and strategy and barely 5% on decoration.
Nasty
IMO:

all things aside (bill being a pro mapper etc.)

i absolutely hate the map

First of all.. its ugly! terrible look = no motivation to play it.

the nat is unconventional (gas position) and the lone mineral block is retarded to say the least.

bases are very small which makes the map seem all the more uninteresting. and which also makes no reason for an unbuildable middle because a t (or a p for that matter) can mass up easily and push..

The combination of main and nat is pretty cool looking but the rest of the map doesnt look functional, appealing, or fun.
nastymarine
*cant* mass up easily and push toward the enemy..*****
Arden(WoF)
Uh... I feel you on the "It's ugly as hell", but theres no way T can get an easy push if the bases are small and the middle is completely unbuildable. The map seems to lean more towards P or Z - but I think mostly Z. The two entrances might hurt a bit, but the way the natural choke is situated, I'd say Zerg has a easy time defending. And while they hold a strong defense early on, they can mass up in their tiny bases while T struggles to fit factories in.

*Sorry, I posted before I saw your edit*
modified by Arden(WoF)
Nasty
@Arden: no worries


Summary of the map:
its a very unattractive map.. not crazy about it whats so ever! nothing about this map has something new to offer thats fun. hence there is nothing very motivating about it.

is it really the mots?
Antares
i think everybody has thought it for a minute, that cameleon becomes mots, because bill is one of the PGT admins and he creates the mappack too ^^
inept
thats all i hear on this website "bla bla it looks ugly crap map!"

who the fuck cares if it looks good or not. It has innovational gameplay and thats what there trying to do. luna most played map all crevice center. does that keep people from playing it? NOPE
NastyMarine
honestly inept u say that b.c u think that ur maps are good but they are ugly even tho gameplay shuld be well lol. i dont mean to offend but thats what it seems like.. and when it comes down to it... do u really like this map more than the other 2 maps?

the middle for luna is ugly but the rest of the map is pretty good lookin imo
inept
thats why i continually say i suck at mapmaking but im good at gaming...rofl you suck at life nasty -_-
MillenniumArmy
Shut up both of you :P

I played on Chameleon a couple times, it's really not too bad. But honestly I really don't see what's so special about it.
NastyMarine
its all love inept :)

i wuldnt wanna play this map any way
flothefreak
chameleon is surely NOT crap. i already pointed out, in my opinion it is bill's best work by far.
still, taking memory cell into the poll but then deciding "we wanted an original map from the start on" is ridiculos. so it is more his behaviour than his map that we dont like.

for the luna part: luna is ugly, luna is imbalanced, luna is plain and too simple for good gameplay. but if there are no alternatives spread, people will use it. HELL, there are still mappacks with requiem, although it is so imbalanced (proven).

and most players above a certain level play non-lt-non-luna maps happily.
s17eoulnightly513~
ugly baby, luna without balanced! T_T
s17eoulnightly513~
best bill307? no....

better bill307 mapo:
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Enmity(n).jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/WGT12-Ash_Rose_1.3(n).jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Hawkeye(n).jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Counterpoint(n).jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Interstate%2030(n).jpg
flothefreak
those are by far worse than chameleon
Spitfire
Ash Rose is his best, truly. Chameleon totally disappointed me, I played it 2 or 3 times and I began to hate it. Gameplay is very unbalanced. Like on LT you must play in a defferent way on different locations. 3/6 and 12/9 startings provide many drop possibilities and is comfortable for muta harrass. So, most of the players will try to play fast games, but all depends on the chosen strategies. If 9h location player sends the probe to 6h at first and enemy is on a 12h - the game depends only on LUCK. Going to high-tech is a autodeath here.

It somehow cuts off player's imagination in the beginning.
modified by Spitfire
inept
but plain means free movement and you can do what you want. its more of a macro map without the gay azalea part.

I dont personally like luna but i was just trying to make the point that people will play a map even if itsugly.
flothefreak
well, those short drop-distances is what i like on gaia actually. ash rose on the other hand is not good imo.
Nasty
I dont like any of those maps suggested by S17.. all crap.. whats so gosu about his maps? please some1 tell me. i can name at least 5 mappers here on bwm.n that are better than him
LGI-
Well i play 10 games today in PGTour, most of them were 2v2. And i really hate that zerg can just put his second hatchery very near to his choke and have a second gas. Most of the zergs are doing exatcly this and you all can imagine how many mutes can he make or lurks in the begining...
LGI-
In the end of the season this map will be called "Zerg Paradise"
inept
look at the stats already. 40/60 and zerg probably isnt even taking advantage of all this yet.

NastyMarine
not to mention that sattarchasm has already been called a 'zerg's paradise'
Spitfire
In ZvP. ZvT is not so easy there, it's more a Terran map in ZvT imo.
AiurZ
"look at the stats already. 40/60 and zerg probably isnt even taking advantage of all this yet."
sattarchasm was just as bad at the start of the season.

"I dont like any of those maps suggested by S17.. all crap.. whats so gosu about his maps? please some1 tell me. i can name at least 5 mappers here on bwm.n that are better than him"
if you had both bill and trcc make a map, i would be willing to bet that bill's map would be more balanced.

the problem is that a lot of you judge the map solely based upon its looks instead of its actual gameplay. in general, a more balanced map would lose to a prettier map in the motw competitions here, and in general a prettier map will have more favorable comments.


spitfire, your comment about the map play varying according to position is actually a very good thing about the map as opposed to a lot of the maps posted here. the map is dynamic and positions make a large difference into the play of the map, without necessarily favoring any position over the other.


NastyMarine
@auir : ur right but u also hafta make ur maps appealing too (motivation factor). MC is a better looking map and i've never heard any gameplay problems either. theres an obvious 2 best choices when u look at all 3 ideal maps on the pgt site. sometimes it comes down to looks wen all 3 of the maps play equal. chameleon is going to be chosen over MC.. idk why or how this map would play better than any other of the 3. if u want different positions and still not have an advantage or disadvantage u might as well play lt.. ull get the same thing or play Backwater Station (jus an example of my maps (trying to promote it lol)).

(IMO)
NastyMarine
i'd love to see some of our mappers vs any other 'pro' mappers .. im willing to bet some of us are just as good. and have a better taste for deco etc...
s17eoulnightly513~
hey~~

yes, 5 mapper on this site better than bill307. true.....

but maps i said, better than chamelon. ... also true^^;; better beauty, better balance.


also, PGTe status is not true. many chobo and gosu do not play unfair maps. satter is not proven balance by PGT, chamelon is much worse too.

thanks bye
NastyMarine
i cant say it enuff man this map sucks .. srry for spamming it but jeez.. it culd be done alot better
Listoric
Hmm.

I somehow like it, but, imagine a TvP 6vs9.

The Terran takes his natural, and turtles up to the lowerleft expansion from his natural - even with the small unbuildable part, it should not be that much of a problem. protoss would then be forced to expo somewhere else on the map, which isn't that much of a problem, stlitt terran "just" turtles up into your natural and main in one rush. You can't even attack his main that good, cuz he blocks the entrance to the natural with a barracks and maybe a depot easily, covered by mines and just some tanks. So Protoss has to "outexpand" a terran, taking 2 gas expansions, easily takes the island in the corner also, while protoss has to defend his mainbase and natural against turtling terran tanks.

Ok, this is the "worst case scenario" maybe. But i just made this up after looking at the picture for a minute. Maybe real terran players know even an even worse scenario.

Sure, it's not that much a problem on other positions, no queston about that. But you still have to balance all positions and matchups.

I still like the map, but the third expansions is very hard to get for every race, and it somehow feels like zerg and protoss especially would have a very hard time on that issue.
LGI-
What, Listoric said about TvP is true, and they are other reasons that terran will own on those locations, and not only those two :) . Because of the shitty balance i play this map only in 2v2 mode. At least you both can start at 9 and 6 or 3 and 12 o'clock and get a safe expand between you, which makes the map very team play.

AND I HATE THE BUILDING SPACE IN MAIN BASES! IS THERE A MINI FACTORY BUILDING WHICH IS TAKING LESS SPACE?! GOD DAMN IT!
--v mOsQ
Spitfire: "ZvT is not so easy there, it's more a Terran map in ZvT imo"

^^^ Spitfire sorry YOU NOOB ^^^
fD)SexSh0p(
Only z map... lol
Sky
i played this map a few times and i gotta say, to much gas~! and even though bill wanted to make a balanced pvz it didn't work 60% z>p according to statistics.
yenku
take it easy. If this was made by anyone else you would think it was cool and innovative, but since its bill your say "ITS TERRIBLE, ITS UGLY, ITS NOT INNOVATIVE, IM A JACKASS" chill out. the map is, if anything, innovative, also, ingame the looks arent bad AT ALL. and the balance isnt that far off either.

i like it.
modified by yenku
Listoric
"If this was made by anyone else you would all think it was cool and innovative, but since its bill your all "ITS TERRIBLE, ITS UGLY, ITS NOT INNOVATIVE, IM A JACKASS" chill out."

I don't like that small mainbases even if there is enough space on the natural.
I don't like the above written TvP situation.
I like the look of the map, still it could be better and sraight lines could be done more natural without changing concept.
I like it that the gas issue seems to be in bills mind but he still missed to open scarab-slots in two minerallines.
I like it as 2on2 map but dislike it as 1on1 map.

The concept is good, reminds me of Shangri La and especially Hokus Peakus with natural next to the min on highground while having a to small mainbase. It's a good concept, but the exectution needs tweaking.
Arden(WoF)
You mean Grapes of Wrath?
yenku
Lis, i was kinda directing that to nasty.
maybe not clear enough with the quote. I was also probably angry for somereason when i posted that. =D ill try to not sound as harsh anymore.
modified by yenku
NastyMarine
"take it easy. If this was made by anyone else you would think it was cool and innovative, but since its bill your say "ITS TERRIBLE, ITS UGLY, ITS NOT INNOVATIVE, IM A JACKASS" chill out."

NO, if i was like that, i'd worship SP, trcc, and Travin jus as much as you all do.. but i dont so why say that? thats totally stupid.
yenku
i didnt say you would worship them, i said that you wouldnt be trash talking it. just like i said before. chill.
yenku
more i look at it the more i realize this made protoss pretty flexible. FE, late robotics(at least for drops), quick macro, etc.
EffectHypnotize
ADAPT TO THE MAPS. dont base ur assupmtions on so called "gameplay". every map is well balanced made by a pro mapper. i have won some tvz and lost some tvz. i won a few tvp and lost a few tvp. won some tvt and lost some tvt. it all depends on how u play it. two good players can have a great game on a vlizzard map and we knoe how shitty those are. it ALSO adds a bit of strategy to the game (damn macro whores).
lnept
lol have you ever played PGT? everyone is a macro robot, as well as a micro robot. everyone lacks insight though.

the reason you lost some and won some is probably because of skill difference, not the map...
the dentist
sure, you can always become better, or learn a map more. but does that mean there is no difference in difficulty between maps for a given race of a given matchup? ... no, it doesn't. people have been playing broodwar a long fucking time and have a pretty good idea of some basic things that are hard on certain races in certain matchups, early game, midgame, late, whatever.

so i'm sick of you robots saying "just adapt to the map", being so proud of yourself because you're content beating people 2x worse than you on these maps, or content with certain maps because you play the advantaged race but don't feel advantaged because you like to believe you earned your wins and that the players you do beat are actually fair wins.

i've seen this bullshit so much, people liking the maps that advantage the side they play, and believing "the map is just good, it's fair" when it obviously isn't compared to other maps--just like in counterstrike.

zerg obviously has an easier expo on this map than on most. toss doesn't get an expo on this map vs zerg as easily as they do on other maps. maps that are known to be z>p. so it makes sense that protoss only win 42.8% of the time vs zerg on this map.

and what's so unique about this map? it's ugly, it's fair for the same two matchups that are always fair and imba for the matchup that's always imba. _nothing_ good on this map.

and don't let the stats fool you. depending on if you get "connected" spots or not, the matchups will be balanced one way or the other. half the time it's T>P, the other half the time it's P>T. half the time on this map Zerg has a huge advantage over toss, and half the time zerg has a less but still big advantage over toss. so the stats are only half the story, this map is a 2-state map, like most maps, and you have to talk about the balances of those states seperately. thsoe of you who aren't are only showing your ignorance.

this just isn't a quality map. an interesting setup, maybe. but executed and balanced in the bill style. ugh.
lnept
you just show your ignorance in everyone wanting "balanced map"

i could give a fuck less if the stupid map balances race or not, i just want to play different things.

btw if you want me to own you the dentist, just ask. you seem to be a "gosu player" from what your trying to say.
NastyMarine
lmfao!!! yea inpet yes! u da man lol
flothefreak
come on lnept...you were once B- but (iirc) are about C+
you're not the biggest fish out here. and actually the most popular criticism on maps _is_ IMBA!!!""!"!!!111
the dentist
if you want to make fun maps that are easy win in some matchup what's the point, that is the ONLY obstacle in making maps... jesus

what happened to your "just adapt" speech? now you are saying you don't care if a map is balanced you just want something different? i'm sure you don't want maps that ruin whatever race you want to play. so give me a break.
lnept
C+ is more then enough to beat this clown.
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