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Forum - offtopic
Veterans lurking: Hello!
page: 1
Hey, I know there's been a lot of people that have come and go through the years, and I'm sure every once in a while they come through to check how the site has been doing...

Not sure where everybody is in terms of life circumstances, but if you are one of the veterans on this site and have moved on from BW to other things, come say hi! It'd be much appreciated, and I miss all you guys (except you xelious) LOL
2016, 12, 15 20:29
Hi!

I'm actually curious. How much are you guys taking recent balance issues into account on your maps.

If we look at Fighting Spirit, a map we all figured to be relatively balanced, it's actually super Terran favoured in TvZ atm.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/237_Fighting_Spirit

Part of this is probably just the rise of late-game mech. Have you guys considered this stuff while making your maps, maybe making mineral lines more muta-harassable or some other ZvT balancing feature?
modified by neobowman
2017, 01, 05 18:14
This is actually something I've been thinking about a lot... I think that tvz late mech is kinda imbalanced right now. Terran is extremely cost efficient against Zerg, and even with an economic advantage it is difficult for the Zerg player since it is on them to make aggressive moves. The Terran for the most part can turtle up and play an easier game with their superior defense and cost efficiency.

I forget who I read this from [might have been Zero's interview on TL recently, not sure], but I really do agree...

Maps nowadays should address ZvT balance in this way:

-Relatively easy third gas for the Zerg (and multiple options so the Terran can be kept guessing). This means Zerg should be able to hold a third gas with not much investment (lurkers at ramp, 1 choke, can be held with 1 defiler and 2 lurks or a few sunks, all this without making it too easy for Terran to get a third. Since Zerg is the more mobile race, a far third gas benefits Zerg more than Terran.

-Naturals or main (not both, that's too op, should usually be the natural) should have mineral formations facing somewhat against a cliff or clutter area to make muta harass easier.

-9 patches in main and 7 or 8 in natural is good balance wise.

-Linearity should be addressed... Zerg needs to be able to retreat without giving up ground to the Terran and being forced into a head on engagement. Zerg needs to be able to flank, or counteract when Terran moves out. Many paths around the map with different tactical advantages/disadvantages.

-Overlord spots: very important but I think it is hard to implement in some maps, especially those with wide open centers. Not only should there be multiple overlord spots around the map, but they need to be placed next to important paths around the map. An overlord spot overlooking the natural should be in every map I think. Maps with wide open centers can be thought of as good for Zerg flanking (python, I might put FS in this category because overlords are not safe in the middle, CB, Eye of the Storm, etc.) but when it comes to actual map control in the form of vision, it becomes difficult for Zerg to maintain. Terrans have mines and scans, Protoss has observers, and Zerg... overlords.
Also having many overlord spots allows Zerg to catch army movements from the Terran, incoming drops, or maybe even a Terran trying to expand secretly.

-Important distances: rush distances, or distances between naturals or from one main to the other should not be too long or too short, but "just right" (as the pro gamer put it). Far enough that the Zerg has a chance to deal with a Terran push, but close enough that early pool builds will be effective enough in discouraging greedy Terran builds (14cc, etc) or allow the Zerg to punish.
Another important distance is the main to natural distance and this is because of muralisk harass. The more that the main and natural are spread apart, the stronger mutas are since the Terran has more perimeter to defend with turrets and M&M.


Some other ways map makers can address tvz balance:

-In base mineral patches or small expansions: zergs build hatcheries in the main anyways and this way they can have lower drone counts but maintain higher efficiency per worker (less wandering, etc.). However, I think it might affect PvZ in favor of Protoss in that it allows Protoss to have more gateways and more zealots, I'm not too sure.

-decision to make a 2-, 3-, or a 4-player map. This is map specific to a degree but on FS, for example, it is easy for a Terran in late game to hold an empty main base and fortify with tanks on the ledge, turret spam, mines, depot walls, making factories there, all the while securing the natural as well. It becomes super hard for the Zerg to break such a fortified position, but if the Zerg player doesn't do anything, they are screwed. This scenario comes up more in 4 player maps, and rarely happens in 3 player maps, and is impossible to happen in 2 player maps (where map is split and Terran easily secures an empty main base + natural expansion).
modified by JungleTerrain
2017, 01, 06 12:41
Hi,

I'm not going to get involved in the TvZ balance discussion, I don't know much about Broodwar anymore;)

I actually forgot my own password to login. Fortunatly, I could simply change it in the database myself, what a privilege:P If you are another veteran with the same problem, shoot me a mail to panschk at gmail.com and I might be able to help you out.

Let's see, a short update on my life:

Married since 2012 to a beautiful woman from Madagascar and have a three year old son, who is currently obsessed with trains, busses and firefighters. Have had the same job as an IT consultant for eight years now. Moved back from Frankfurt to Hannover (Germany) two years ago. I actually try to do some blogging like twice a year on panschk.de, besides that I'm not that visible online anymore. I still do side projects from time to time, i.e. I released two simple Android apps.

I think it's really cool that still some people use this site from time to time. Shoutout to CardinalAllin for keeping the news updated like this! Are there still people playing SC/BW online competitively? In a couple of years I might be able to play it with my son, and to even finally try Starcraft 2. Never got around to it ;-)

Would love to hear from other guys as well :)

Regards

Paul
modified by panschk[FP]
2017, 01, 06 19:52
Haha that is quite the privilege Panschk. It's great to hear from you and happy that you are enjoying your new family. Thanks for providing this platform for a few of us to share broodwar mapping.

And actually, 2016 was a good year for BW. The game has had a resurgence as of late (especially in Korea). Flash, Jaedong, Stork and Bisu along with a bunch of other ex-pros have come back to the scene and are playing in big tournaments for big prize pools (ASL2, for example).

ICCup server is pretty low activity-wise (usually 100-400 users at any given time). I remember when I first started playing in ICCup back in like 2008 I think, it would peak around 2,000-3,000 users.
Fish server (korean server) is the place to go since that's where all the ex-pros play and all the best players (korean and foreign) play. I hear there are around 15,000-20,000 users on that server during peak hours and because of the BW resurgence, the numbers are growing.

However, nobody is sure if this regrowth is sustainable since League of Legends and Overwatch along with other games are where most e-sports audiences congregate to. Also, a lot of these ex-pros are having their mandatory military terms come up and will have to leave the scene for about 20 months if I am correct.

This is just a brief overview of current BW, as of beginning of 2017, for anybody interested.
modified by JungleTerrain
2017, 01, 07 09:11
Cool hearing from you Panschk.

Personally, I'm in college atm. Weird how much has changed since I frequented this site.

I think a close 3rd gas is absolutely critical for Terran late mech. I know a while back in a game with Jaedong vs. Mong I think on eye of the storm, Jaedong got his 4th gas up and Mong was stuck on his main, nat and a mineral only. There was a huge drop in Jaedong's main that killed most of his tech. Flash on his stream was saying that even though that happened, Jaedong was still ahead because he had 4 gases vs. Mong's 2, and Jaedong shortly after rolled Mong over with cows.

A distant 3rd gas seems a relatively good solution for Terran late mech. Doesn't make it impossible but harder, and formerly standard late game bio play should still be viable on 2 gas.
2017, 01, 07 18:44
Hey, thanks JungleTerrain for the overview of the current BW scene. Let's see, maybe I should just install BW on my computer again :)
2017, 01, 08 11:29
Well if you ever want to play (this is for anybody)... mca64Launcher is probably the best option. It allows you to play on ICCup and Fish server. Fish is really easy to get a game (although I recommend downloading the Fighting Spirit Map Pack with like 50 versions of FS, because that's what most Koreans play and they'll kick you if you start downloading the map as opposed to already having it).

And ICCup it is hard to get a game unless you can host. Also, the ranks there have become inflated as of late since they made some changes (Old B- now like A-), not taking into account changes to meta.
2017, 01, 09 21:44
Good to see you panschk. Nice android apps.
(this is CardinalAllin btw, new name).
Feels like yesterday when you fixed the problem with the site but that was actually 2 years ago on the 12th August 2014. wow!


OpenBW is in development:
OpenBW link

I made a public domain tileset for it:
Vaylu tileset link

(would you like to host it on this site somehow?)

I also made a different pokemon/zelda style tileset and made 2 brood war map mock ups:
brood war low definition link

A new server is in development called shieldbattery:
shieldbattery link

If anyone wants to look at team roster player lists from 2009 and 2011:
team rosters link

Ive started releasing a project called Star Tale:
Star Tale link

----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

zvt
the zero interview

Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why?
A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.

Q: What do you think are the map features that are necessary for balancing the TvZ matchup?
A: First, Zerg needs spots to safely place overlords for vision. Second, rush distances cannot be too long or too short. They must be just right. Third, it should not be possible to wall in the natural expansion. There must be more expansions with gas. In particular, it should be easier for Zerg to take the third or fourth gas. Aztec is a map that has many of these features. A backyard mineral-only expansion, like on Neo Electric Circuit, helps Zerg as well.

zero interview link

neobowman, nice thread hijack lol.
You might like these links:

3 posts by me:
ZvT How to play vs Mech Switch pt1
ZvT How to play vs Mech Switch pt2
TvZ axiom build order

Also you might like my map (2)Niobe:
Niobe link
Crown And Sceptre link
Latin Quarter link

@JungleTerrain, another 2 player map with pseudo empty main and nat ;)
Checkpoint


The zvt situation is very complex.
2017, 01, 19 00:20
Haha, I didn't expect other people to pitch in so fast.

Yeah, ZvT is still the most interesting matchup. Something probably should be done in terms of maps though.
2017, 01, 27 00:05
Looks like I'm late to the party, but this is Nightmarjoo. I don't even play sc2 very often anymore, but I still check back here every now and then. I'm super happy to see this site is even a little bit active still.

Freakling and Jungleterrain got interviewed on teamliquid: here
modified by Lyra
2017, 05, 04 06:34
Forgot your password? lol
2017, 05, 05 00:55
I already posted elsewhere, but i might give the update aswell..!

I played SC2 for quite some time at a hobby level, currently i play alot of Overwatch in low diamonds on Europe as "Kris".

When i started with this site around 2005 i was about to head into uni. Today i have already started and ended a career in journalism after that exam and i am currently doing a new exam in marketing. I moved to Stockholm, got engaged, separated, spent a year in chaos and now im in a place where things seem to sort it self out again! Hoping for an internship at a prestigious PR-bureau this autumn which i will know more about coming wednesday actually! :)
2017, 05, 07 02:48
Starparty, that is great to hear! Life is full of ups and downs as I've already had a small glimpse of this fact...

I wish the best of luck to you and in any and all of your future endeavors. Don't make yourself a stranger!
2017, 05, 10 08:36
Hi, local BB map uploader checking in. Saw you in Op vexx-

As for me, I have had a pretty perilous personal life, although I am doing pretty decently ok now and for the past year or two.

I stopped BW when sc2 came out, was top ranked and on a team for a while, quit-partly due to life issues around late WOL and early HOTS.

You guys would be delighted to know that I made a few versions of bloodbath for SC2, WoL, HotS, and LotV.

Played a bit of heroes of the storm and hearthstone. Also played a bunch of street fighter 3, 4 and 5. I play poker occasionally as well.

Got SCR and have played a ton of games on Blood Bath as well as the ladder, although its not recording games so it kinda sucks when you go like 12-1 and the ladder shows 8-1.

My life mainly revolves around working 6 nights a week, lifting, and dealing with women problems.
modified by SpoRe
2017, 08, 22 08:30
Panschk, I forgot my passwords for my other accounts SpoR and SpoR[Mech] if you can kindly email me one or both of them at Spore3006 at gmail dot com
2017, 08, 22 08:32
Greetings! now i know why your site has the name it does. congrats on the son. i do play competitive bw on iccup still in recently years and remaster is competitive as well which this site could have a section devoted to so yes i think the interest level worldwide is still high.
2018, 09, 29 17:39
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