|wow. Very very cool map:) I can't think of anything to improve.|
|Thankyou :) I was inspired by peatzas soora kingdom where he customized the terrain. So i went and made my own customization and tried to put it into my original "crowd-pleaser" map concept|
|I hope the name isnt taken already though...|
|gj, 9 points|
|wow, seeing as you stomping on many of peatzas maps im truly honored! !_!|
User-beta is absolutely the right category to put this map. It's already incredible beautiful and would've won the TL.net Custom Map Tournament by a landslide. But the thing is that the map is only in its infant stage, and with some slight changes the map could reach perfection.
Unbelievable details!! and expansion positions is so well thought out that I just have to play it right now.
|Im glad beeing of use :)|
|i think it looks very nice i say 9/10 gj|
|v1.1 added, smaller edits, like placed center exps just a little differently, and added unbuildable ground to 2nats to prevent cheese terran push over the wall from 2nat to opponent 2nat|
|as i mentioned at TL.net this map totaly sux, sorry but here is no concept behind... map seems as if u "just wanted to make a good looking map"|
|I tried to be objective and not too harsch, but since you stubbornly persist in acting like a complete idiot i can't help it. I have never seen you post anything close to this in "concept" and "design" and your recent comments are stupid and subjective. If you played your cards right mabye we could had a co-project of some-kind but right now i don't feel like learning you anything. If there was a pm choise on this page you'd eventually see this message there, but now there isn't, so unfortunately everyone else can see it too.|
|? Xuul, i really do not know what you are talking about? Come on, this map is awesome. It looks great, the expansions are well postitioned, you have enuff tactical posibilities to run around an enemy or something.|
it really is a good map?!
for me it looks more like a) you don't really know what a map should look like (but i think you know)
or b) you just don`t like the author of the map, but that should not be the point of it.
Anyway, i wonder why you post a crappy comment like this...
|good job ;O|
|the thing is, that i just needed 10 seconds to see that this map is total crap|
i can explain it again y it sux
1) the expo at 12 is more than lol
2) the expos in the middle are totaly misplaced
3) there is no room to flank terran units
i guess the author is an unexperienced gamer and just thinks its good cause he knows the secret skills of how to improve the jpg-looking of the map with starforge (just take a look at TL.net)
sorry but this is rly not a good map, though it looks nice at the jpg ^^
|Well you got a point with the missing room to flank. That's maybe because starparty is a t player and prefers it that way;) Opening up the middle should seriously be considered (just taking away some of these blocking high platform things-_-). I don't agree on your other points though. IMHO the placement of expansions is very good.|
|Xuul, it really seems you doesnt know anything about anything. You havn't posted A SINGLE evidence of you proving any of your points. Seriously, stop being jealous, accept the facts , play the map, post replays, and then we can have a discussion about them.|
|Thats right, You "guess", thats the only thing you ever did.|
|STIMEY D OKGM FISH|
|Starparty, no one is questioning your map making skills. You said yourself you aren't much of a serious gamer. Doesn't it make sense to listen to better gamers than yourself when it comes to balancing your maps then?|
|Stimey: Sure, listen to better gamers, but when someone is being a total ass and comes on and bluntly says 'this map is total crap' when obviously Starparty spent a lot of time making the map and trying to balance it for serious gaming, I dont respect him at all, good gamer or not.|
Also, I'm not sure if you updated the map or not since panschk's comment, but it appears to me that there is enough room for flanking.. would have to play it to be sure.
This is probably one of the nicest maps I've seen though, aesthetically.
|Stimey. I have to go with the masses on this one. Everyone has been giving good advice and tips to make it as it is now. xuul only complained on things his theorycraft found and behaved really badly. His comments on this map has so far has been of no value to me or to anyone, and they are so based on thin ice that it feels more like personal harrasment than actual critizism. Nothing of his comments on the map is true, and he hasn't proved otherwise either, meaning it has nothing to do with the map, rather than it has to do with me (don't have any idea why though). |
|STIMEY D OKGM FISH|
|i dont think xuul came here to waste people's time or hurt you in particular. as unskilled and unhelpful as he is, i think his intention was to relay his actual experience with this map as, most likely, a better player than you.|
|He probably is, but the amount of stupid comments doesnt near weight up his intentions, if they were meant as helping ones. And when i could play i was'nt super, but far above mediocre ;P|
If his comments relied on experience then im a bit confused...
"as i mentioned at TL.net this map totaly sux, sorry but here is no concept behind... map seems as if u 'just wanted to make a good looking map'"
"the thing is, that i just needed 10 seconds to see that this map is total crap"
"i can explain it again y it sux"
1) the expo at 12 is more than lol
2) the expos in the middle are totaly misplaced
3) there is no room to flank terran units
"i guess the author is an unexperienced gamer and just thinks its good cause he knows the secret skills of how to improve the jpg-looking of the map with starforge (just take a look at TL.net)"
"sorry but this is rly not a good map, though it looks nice at the jpg ^^"
One can always wonder what experience this relies on...
|STIMEY D OKGM FISH|
|i like this map myself. it's too good for me to really say anything bad about it without playing it a lot more than i probably ever will (i don't play broodwar much, let alone on maps that no one plays).|
|I would play if i could.. such is unfortunately not the case atm...|
|lol, i realized that it's a skull with two bones in the middle, haven't seen it till i looked at the minimap portrait when i craete a game, gj ^^ |
|Very neat map, but way way way too much $$$ on it. Nine geysers on a 2 player map? lol. This map literally has more money on it than some 4 player WGT maps (like Gaema Gowon). I don't know how you would go about nerfing the money, but eliminating atleast 2 expos as well as reducing the # of islands to one would improve this map's play greatly I think.|
Flanking looks mildly tough. This could be fixed if you took away part of the blocking high platform between the bases like panschk said earlier.
I give it a 7/10.
I guess doing all this would make the map not look so pretty anymore so you probably won't touch it. It's your map afterall.
|It's ok to have many expos imho. It works on 4 player maps, that are played mostly 1on1, too. |
I had a couple of games, this map is really fine;)
|The ramp is really far away from the main building though. It is hard to defend the choke in TvP or maybe PvZ. Even though it may not be that imbalanced because of that, there are just less GGs happening when one player is rushed early and dies because of that. I would just move the main minerals and starting point up a bit, so it is closer to the ramp.|
|yep, that's the mainproblem i've got with the map|
we played that tournement yesterday and so i played three games on the map, but still i can't really say much bout it, coz noone of the games took longer than a several minutes
still i think it's really a good map and i'm pretty sure protoss does not have any disadvantages
|FMotW :D weeee!|
|The Listoric rep was very fun|
|I played several matches on the map. first of all, it really looks great! and not only on the picture but as well ingame. but i think you should really consider changing some things in the map, in my opinion terran is too dominant on this map...|
1. the choke in front of the natural is too narrow imo. as a terran, you can easily defend it with a bunker + barracks + 2 tanks. on the other hand breaking out of a siege containment in front of your natural as a z or p is pretty hard. the only option you got for flanking are those three tiny mineral blocks. but still, t can just postion some tanks behind this wall between nat and southern min only, its very hard to break out. (might be similar in zvp lurker containment situation)
2. even in the middle theres only one point to flank the terran (you can flank from above at the spot with that skull). but it takes some time to get your units up there and if you wait too long game is almost over. your only option is taking the islands.
3. expansion at 12 also favours terran. i think it's even worse than a cliffdrop on LT. you don't need mutas or droptech to kill the tanks, but the platform is so small and the choke is so narrow that it's almost impossible to beat a well positioned terran there.
conclusion: of course there should be some spots for a terran to set up a nice tank push, but ther should always be a place for a protoss (or zerg) to stop him. you should seriously consider to remove (or at least shorten) some of the walls, i think, especially the one at the natural. i don't mind some expansions being cliffable, but then there needs to be some other places p or z can defend.
anyway, i truely like your map (8/10) and that's the only reason why i'm putting so much effort in criticising the balance issues on this map.
PS: i also uploaded a rep. i'm lastlam3r(p) playing against my terran friend. i'm not really a god protoss player and he is much better then me, but you can see how powerfull a slow t push can be on this map. at least theres some nice arbiter/emp action going on at the end ;)
|Ive noticed that protoss needs to play very aggressive to achieve on this map (see peatza vs uiulic11) but then again peatza was way betetr and fucked the terran from start. Im a t player ofc im biased :P But i really have not yet seen evidence of the map beeing -too- terran biased since no tvp game has been with even opponents yet. If your firend was better than you, and you beat him pvt on this map, then it would be p biased, wouldn't it? But since you seem to have lost perhaps everything is in order :P Not trying to imply anything, You might aswell have right - im just thinking logically :P|
|Well I had a pvt against a clanmate of me who is way better than me (He is p user, I'm t user most of the time, so we did not play our main race). It wasn't even close. If protoss plays just a basic 2 gate goon harass build and does not fuck up, terran has a hard time surviving. Don't want to be offending, but you don't know broodwar if you say this map is t>p. zerg don't like two player maps anyway, but I think it is still quite balanced in the zerg matchups.|
|First off. Great replay. very entertaining. som emistakes perhaps, but they were mutual so it was balanced and interesting. |
You survive almost 54 minutes and calling it terran biased? :P The map overall is very open with only a few places to anoy with tanks.
Reasons You might lost wich does not indulge the map itself.
1. None of you had grades at all. this doesnt make any difference as it is, but with 3-3-3p vs 0-0t.. go figure.. :)
2. You had 4000 minerals the entire first 15 minutes. No wonder he pushed you. 4000 is -alot- of units.
3. Arbiters are cool and you use them great, specially in the last minutes when he drops your 12base and you freeze it all etc. but come on, usig those gases for a couple of templars could be nice, and since he was late with vessel and didnt push with either turret or mines (until later on) some dt's would have ensured a bit more control.
the 12 expansion cliff is not small in anyway :P Of course its frustrating when your exp got sieged, but hey, you didnt even try walking up the enourmous ramp to kill them ;O only sent a shuttle right into the goliath fire.
The replay was as i said very entertaining and i though you both played very good, except for the money control thing (goes for both, T maxed 7-8000 most of the game :P) But i really feel that this game strenghtens my arguments more than yours :o After all, its only 1 game.. You should try some more games, and post those reps too.. I think that we will see that it works as it is supposed to then...
|"the choke is so narrow" |
|"the choke is so narrow"|
but i forgot 2 things:
- cliff at the min only. really tiny, you need carriers, 5 shuttles or d-web to retake itif terran drops to golis
- you can close the wall above the exp at 10/2 and put a tank behind.
as i said, i don't think you should change everything, imo there's just al little too much walls the terran can hold on to...
|Both of the cliffing abillities are intentional. Creds to you for being the first one to see the spots at 10 and 2 ;) as for 2nat cliffs, put 5 goons below or storm ;P|
|pretty nice map!|
i played some 8-10 games on it vs kabumm so far (kabumm uploaded one of them) and i really like it. about the pvt issue, i wanna add that you have to consider that the balance is also connected with the skil of the participating players. when two pro gamers play a map might be balanced, but if two players with lower skill, but skillwise equally, play it it might not. for example: it might take less skill for a t player to exploit a certain spot on the map, than it takes for a p player to resolve the situation.
i think the biggest problem for a t in a tvp is crossing the middle, but once you managed to go across there and you managed to put your troops above the 3/9 gas expos protoss has a hard time to fight them back. once you deny that expo for protoss you get the upper hand. a counter attack for protoss isn't so easy as well, since terran can defend his side of the map with relatively few units, except the mins only expo farest to the middle. btw, i find it pretty neat, that you can "wall" of the 3/9 expos with buildings ;)
the 12 expo is kinda vulnerable due to the big high ground below it.
i'd change the 3/9 expos a bit in a way that they dont have that many walls around them. that would on the one hand make a easier to attack them, and on the other hand harder to put siege on it.
also i'd make the high ground below 12 expo smaller, so that less units fit on there and you can't put your self in such a strong position there.
|the rep i uploaded wasn't put there as an evidence that protoss can't win a game on this map. i just thought it was kinda funny to watch. i even won a game on this map against t (by early reaver drop), but that doesn't change a thing.|
"You survive almost 54 minutes and calling it terran biased"
- i survived that long due too expanding early to one of the islands and later on the arbiter tech.
after watching the rep a 2nd time, i think strategically i've played better games on this map vs t. in pvt you have to break the push exactly in the middle, cause thats the only place for setting up a flank. put some of your units below the 12' cliff and position some at your natural, wait for the terran to try and take the middle, then break his push. while doing this over and over again, expand to the island or somwhere alse and tech to carriers or arbiter.
i'm repeating myself, so this is gonna be the last time i'm saying it: in pvt or zvt you highly rely on flanking the terran and on your map room for flanking is somehow limited. theres always some obstacles giving the t an advantage.
now finally admit that it was intentional that terran is so strong on this map and you only wanted to make a map you could beat your friends on ;) protoss forever!
|Even though I hate 2 player maps, they come out the most balanced and symmetrically beautiful. try making a map this good 4 players :(|
|If i could play sc at all perhaps, but now i cant, and you succesfully managed to hurt my -pride for the profession- (directly translated swedish expression)|
|(Above comment is response to kabumm)|
|After playing a lot of maps which favour terra a lot more than this one and after playing a lot of t on these maps (and loosing), i think (maybe) this map isn't that unbalanced after all. ;) at least there IS room for flanking while on some maps theres none at all. but i still think, there is no way of winning against an equally skilled t as p without arbs/carriers if he once takes the middle. ...and sry for hurting your -pride for the profession- didn't mean that seriously, i was just angry about loosing over and over again on that beautifull map =)|
|i saw your last game and it was the most entertaining replay ive seen this year. seriously. and still you would have hit the t harder in the start if youd gone a bit more gates.. cause terran spended all his money very good this game, while you had alot untill you began carriers. but great replay, really awesome!|
|Your site is realy very interesting. http://www.bignews.com|
|gotta love the random map system :)|
|and its "really", with double "l", like in ill <- see |
|kinda funny.. they write their name to, meaning that someone actually wastes his/her time posting those things?|
|Well, they gave up some weeks ago, didn't they? :)|
btw, nice map :P
|oh, you noticed it by now? :)|
|updated to v 1.1.|
basically opened up the center putside the 1nats so there is harder time containing.
|look at that rating abuse now...|
|Pretty funny but still some kind of sad.I vote 10!|
|well for now every 10-vote pushes the rating about 0.1 T_T|
|Now,this is a true MOTW.Maybe some of you should look closer,because you can learn alot from this one.Also you will see,if you compare it with the actual maps,how low the quality of those maps really are. |
Even when boneheads have rated this map negatively.
modified by DG)SpoilR
|Some time ago i noticed that the ratingsystem wasn't used at all so I wouldn't care much.|
Map is soo nice.