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Last update for (4)Desert_Flower : 2008, 09, 30 23:18
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
1470 (4)Desert_Flower 128*128GriG5.3final

The map has been rated 175 times and got a total of 935 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


Nightmarjoo
I like this a lot more :D nice update. Much better than the original.
Antares
again an edit :D
Cucdas
Great design and new doodads
modified by Cucdas
panschk[FP]
where do I build?
NastyMarine
positional imba for nat/main ramp.

where is flanking room for horizontal positons?

how is any1 able to stop a slow terran push?
Antares
yeah the center is a bit fucked up and the mains are so small (perhaps make it bigger with reducing the backdoor?)

the other parts of the map are good in my opinion, its grigs far best map, but until you wont get rid of your odd things (mass neutral buildings and so), you couldnt make a good map that might be motw

plz if you read this, dont ignore me and dont ignore everyone here, you need to see that your maps make an annoying gameplay that nobody likes (in fact average gamers hate any experimental elements on the map)
modified by Antares
spinesheath
Now I see what Cucdas meant with "new doodads". Though I always wondered what these things were...

Anyone else watched the replay? (newbs at play...)

It shows many issues I couldn't see on the pic and I am unable to open it in an editor because it is protected (imo that's almost a reason to call this map bad - you are like the only one who protects his maps on this page...).

Well, you took a doodad that Blizzard abandoned. Some tiles and a sprite. The reason why Blizzard abandoned it probably is that it does not fit the tileset, I don't think I have to explain what this means.
The other ex-doodad - those rocks - well, you are happy you found them (you were not the first), but sand dunes/crags look way better as decoration...

I didn't notice that the middle was highground until I saw that these "new doodads" are there as well, and these doodads only exist for high dirt. another of these oh-so-cool things that hurt gameplay a lot. Who can tell where the highground starts?
There are two more highground bits above/below the temples - same issue. Just placed because you can blend with sand dunes and found these ex-doodads...

You created small 4-tile-bits of sand dunes and copy-pasted these all over the map. Just that these look out of place ingame...

The spider mines next to the backdoor expansions... what are these good for??? They didn't hinder the player @ 8 from expanding. But they might block an addon @ 8 and 10, not @ 2 and 4...

The sprites on top of the hills @ 12 and 6 hide one SCV and one Drone each. Did anyone notice until now? No I guess. Shouldn't you have told us so? Shouldn't all players know about these, not only the ones you tell this? Since "otoss" (Control I guess) knew about this, I think he's a friend of yours...

And the best thing about this rep is: Your pathing is fucked up.


If this gets MotW without at least half of these issues fixed, I'm gonna leave this place... It's just a look-what-I-can-do-map.
modified by spinesheath
GriG
Update map.
1. Fixed all bugs who i see in replays and comments.
2. Fixed pathing.
3. More area for buidings in main base.
4. Remove all spider mines.
Thanks Control for testing and all who write comments.
modified by GriG
spinesheath
Gozu testing! No pathing issues! All problems fixed!

Two people (GriG and Cucdas) tested this map a whole day long and found no problems!

Ok, see my replay for these things:
WHY, I ask you WHY:

Why is there a pathing problem just with the FIRST - FIRST - FIRST move command I set outside my base? FIRST! Pathing problem! PROBLEM!

Mineral placement is bad, harvesters take longer paths than needed.

Really funny thing I discovered. I must be very lucky: GriG played 30 games on it, Cucdas tested it all day long. But I with this SINGLE GAME am the only one to find this: the top Semi-Islands are connected by small paths, blocked with a mineral block of 80 each. I took the middle island (if you are patient enough, you can watch the replay). I harvested the minerals off. Later, I sent a DRONE from the MIDDLE ISLAND to BUILD AN EXTRACTOR on the LEFT ISLAND. I decided not to interfere with its pathing, you can watch it moving around stupidly for several minutes. WOO now THAT is pathing! But that's not all. I mined off the right mineral block, too. Can you TELL ME why my probe wouldn't fit through, no matter how much I clicked? Blubblub gozu pathing!

And I say it again: HIDDEN NEUTRAL UNITS are for CHEESE MAPS, but NOT for MotWs!


With this said, I wish you fun watching my replay. I tried to play as sick as I could :}
Holy)Sin(
I don't usually like the maps with all the special doodads like Arkanoid and Sins Pioneer Period, but I like how this one uses them. I think it looks pretty nice but I guess spinesheath found some pathing issues.
spinesheath
What you mean is called "neutral buildings". Those are no Doodads, but unit-sprites.

And I did not only find some pathing issues... (not to mention that there are people who claim this map not to have any pathing issues)
5pool
i didnt even finish watching your rep spines, i just felt i needed to comment :P

somewhere on 1/3 through the replay, the computer is gathering his forces, ready to attack the exp you made with your zerg drone. look at them wigling if front of the exp for too long. they cant do shit cause the buildings are in the way, and they cant do shit about the building because they're not yours.

thats just the first pathing problem btw ><
spinesheath
Well, 5pool, this is not considered a pathing problem :P My expansion is on a Semi-Island, and a human player would know that sending his units there is useless. You won't try to directly attack your enemy on Dire Straits, too^^ (And most maps are not meant for human vs computer)
5pool
i know, but it already shows that units cannot find their way on their own. and humans can't always keep an eye on all their units... non-koreans cant anyway :P
Cucdas
OMG spinesheath tested map against computer :)))) Please test (4)Arkanoid vs computers and send replay :))))
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=1557

GriG please remove all neutral buildings and remove all new ideas in this map and change tileset and change map name Desert Flower is bad name. Good name is Luna and Big Game Hunters :))))

I want see after another 20 years only strictly standart MOTW maps :))) New ideas is bad. New doodads is bad and neutral building is bad :))))

Koreans pro leagues map like Arkanoid is stupid. spinesheath is genius. Man i see all your maps. Lolllll :)))))
modified by Cucdas
modified by Cucdas
lnept
ok your officially retarded cucdas. good work.
spinesheath
Blub. I vote for sending Cucdas to Kindergarten.

Cucdas, you have NO idea what testing for pathing issues is about. Just keep your mouth shut.

Btw, that "Soviet_Elmek" certainly is weaker than a comp :D
Cucdas
OK spinesheath go to Kindergarten and play against comp :)))) BTW who is "Soviet_Elmek"? And where u from?
VomiT
this map is a piece of shit
king of 8 plr maps
Neutral buildings where they are causes bad units movement. The bases are too small.

Design of map does look good though
spinesheath
"Soviet_Elmek" Is the guy in the other replay otoss (Control) played against...

Cucdas, I was testing PATHING ISSUES. Did you get that by now? I guess not... It's a lot more effective to do so vs comps - just a little hint to boost your poor knowledge. Sorry, I am getting insulting. But so is this map Oo

Btw, Cucdas, you could upload some replays on this map. You said you tested it a whole day long...

And I second Vomit.
Nightmarjoo
it's not a peice of shit. Don't make grig the villain here, he just made a map which for some reason a bunch of inexperienced mappers (and sp :O) seems to really like. The map is not bad, but it is not exceptional.

btw you can still land on the S or N island, make scv, and mine the mineral in the way.

hmm grig I'm not sure how you could help the map at this point too much. This seems to be a better 2v2 than 1v1 map; either way all 3 races can easily early expo into a gas expo, then secure that mineral only easily. After that it's massing until someone wins, with a little consideration for the islands. There are no neutral bases on land to fight over (more or less), and there is no flanking room. The neutral buildings cause pathing problems because it is the shortest path from E to W. Units do not recognize the neutral building as an obstical the way they do a cliff or wall, so they will act like retards trying to get around it. Once you leave your mineral only it is very tight (helping t hurting z a lot) which only further helps turtling in your three easy to hold bases.

The decoration is boring, there is little terrain deco and virtually no doodad deco. For doodad deco try and add doodads that 1. are walkonable 2. are buildonable. Some doodads especially on highground are walkonable but not buildonable, which can be nice to use for forcing a certain wall on the ramp (or like in luna preventing a wall), you just need to make sure not to use such randomly or your base would have unbuildable terrain in the middle of it which is annoying.
spinesheath
As of decoration: On desert, terrain decoration works out nicest. See Magenta :p

The top paths - I know that you can drop there Oo But these paths were obviously meant to be used for walking there, and they simply are NOT carried out correctly. No testing at all there.

There are several more issues that certainly need to be fixed...

And I wouldn't be too confident that SP was serious with this...
Nightmarjoo
ik spine. I hope he was kidding heh.
king of 8 plr maps
I think map maker loosing intrest in updating this to fix the bugs and may be 1 inexperience or 2 he doesnt want to destory his idea. Eather way they author dont have to fix his map if he doesnt want to if he thinks its good enough.

Its Good looking map but could be better for others with more deco and better pathing yes but who cares, its not like you be playing 1 map in all you gaming.
GriG
Today i upate map.
1. Fixed all bugs who i see in replays and comments.
2. Fixed pathing.
3. Create decoration
Thanks all who testing and comments.
spinesheath
Well, the pathing seems ok now, indeed. Not optimal, but at least no hanging up.

The top path seems ok now, too. Wonder what you changed or what it was. But I'd still suggest larger paths to connect those islands.

The placing of the minonlies is terribly imbalanced...

I didn't check if they are still there, but I still recommend to either remove the sprites that cover the SCV and drone, or to remove those two. Starcraft is not a game where the player is supposed to win that knows such little hidden things.
GriG
Update map.
1. Balanced placing of the minonlies.
2. Remove the sprites that cover the SCV and drone.
2. Larger paths to connect those islands.
3. Create more decoration.
Thanks all who testing and comments.
spinesheath
Now I can only add that I would stick to standard ramps, and that I don't like the highground on the 12/6 islands (with the "new" doodads on it)

Everything else would be details or change the concept, and that's nothing I am going to force out of you. I mostly comment on the execution of a map.
5pool
well its been improved, but the ramps on the upper side of the map seem bigger. could just be me, but might be worth checking out.
spinesheath
I can't check because the map is protected. You are pretty lonely with this habit, GriG...

And yes, they look a little weird to me as well. But I can't tell anything without checking them in SCMD2 or game :p
GriG
This is standart ramps for you map (0)Desert Ramp

Update map.
1. Remove highground on the 12/6 islands.
2. Decrease resources
3. Add replay - test pathing
modified by GriG
5pool
hm, ok grig. i was just doubting, on the picture the upper ones looked a bit bigger :)
GriG
Update map.

Big changes.
modified by GriG
spinesheath
So what? We already saw these pathing issues. It's not optimal, though you COULD leave it like that.

Btw, your tesing methods are... not really sufficient. There is more than only 5 zealots 3 goons from left to right.

I was hoping to get some replays that show how "well" the map plays in a real game now...
Nightmarjoo
<
Nightmarjoo
well that was our thoughts after *playing* it.

There was no room outside the ramp for flanking. I had a 3hatch there and some sunks. Had I not gotten sunks up in time I mighta lost since there's a fucking wall in the way of room to go around mnm to kill with lings, early game of course.

Later on, I had 3 bases mining fine easily, with 4 or so sunks for d guarding all of those. I later took two more. The islands weren't even considered, I didn't need them. He was pretty much stuck in his base since I had like 6 hatches making mostly lings. I could suicide a whole army of lings and be fine.

That game was not gosu but hey.

As for pathing, units did weird things when near neutral buildings. When told to atk one lings atked it, and the ones who couldn't acted like retards instead of going around and atking the way they would a building.
A drone at the start went towards a neutral building and didn't stop until it hit the wall. Then it went around.

The rep was saved with pp, plz no whining "omg rep is corrupt......."

In the middle there is not much room for flanking. If his t had been better I would have been crushed even with my 2-3k while pumping lings and getting triple ups and expoing and teching. The doodads in the center fucking ruin it. Units act like retards around them, and don't move right; that's a real bitch.
Holy)Sin(
Yep I don't like this map. Still has pathing problems and what is with the lame min blocks? Min blocks should only be used on islands that are right next to the main, like on the artist. It prevents T from getting a free expo fast, makes all races have to at least tech to dropships. On this map it serves no purpose.
modified by Holy)Sin(
spinesheath
Woo, another one who actually KNOWS when to put mineral blocks :D

That's rare ;)
GriG
Nightmarjoo good replay. Thank you. But version is old. Please download new version.



Holy)Sin(
The other one's middle was better I think. I think you should take them pointless doodads out of the terran factory and CC in the middle. All it does is throw in another obstacle for no reason. This version is definanly better I think but I'm still not a big fan. I don't like the top bases natural location compared to the bottom. The top just seems really cruel to zerg because you have to 3hatch out front the ramp and put sunkens, but that sacrifices defence of the natural. It is almost impossible for zerg to quick expo on this map with the risk of getting rushed. The bottom is more zerg user friendly because if you 3hatch you can cover the ramp and the natural with 1 group of sunkens.

The top looks to favor Terran for the natural expo.

Overall it looks much improved.
modified by Holy)Sin(
GriG
Update map.
1. Balanced placing of the minonlies.
2. Remove doodads in the middle.
flothefreak
better. although ZvT seems very hard. finally a version that actually can compete for motw (and probably will due to your friends)
modified by flothefreak
Antares
finally a nice version
Nightmarjoo
much better imo. I really like how the islands are semi islands.

I like how the map is still unique, after standardizing it. This is much more playable, and I will try and get a replay on this version.

flothefreak, now that the map is playable I don't think the same people will vote for it, not as many at least.

I think that putting a bit of cliff guarding the side of the ramp will help in zvt.

I will gmcs it.
spinesheath
The distances will probably be too short... And with such an open expo, which doesn't even cover the ramp, I doubt zerg will sant a chance...

Imo definately better, but still not balanced at all...
Holy)Sin(
If the Zerg 3hatch out front it will be able to cover it. At least it isn't like LT when the top base is required 3hatch and the other 3 are easy to defend. I think zerg has to 3hatch in order to defend his early expansion though.
spinesheath
But he will already have trouble holding the hatch that covers the choke. In case of horizontal positions, zerg is forced to play out of its main for a long time (will be hard to take the natural later on because it's so open...)
boongee
just put the natural closer to the ramp
Nightmarjoo
added a replay.

It was a zvz and he 5pooled, so it's not much of a game. I won =/
Holy)Sin(
I noticed you took out the min blocks, good job ^_^. I didn't realize how much open space there was until I gamed on this map. 3hatch won't cover it. I think you need to bring the Tar terran up farther to make the choke a little smaller, not rediculously small, but at least defendable for zerg to 3hatch. A 3hatch is hard as it is. Check GMCS, I think if you make the tar trail up a little rather than just stopping at the Xel Naga buildings it will help the entry, something has to be done to fix that major imbalance for Zerg.
modified by Holy)Sin(
GriG
Done. I update map and reduce space. Now zerg defence is OK.
Nightmarjoo
north still has more room than south does to defend there, but it is better.
king of 8 plr maps
grig you messed up deco infront blues base, if you look at overall design looks like a goblin has a black eye.
GriG
Update map. Reduce north ramps.
flothefreak
the northern ramps seem to be slightly tighter than the ones on south. i tested it ingame, and it had the appearance. but i cant make sure because the map IS FUCKIN PROTECTED YOU DUMBASS! FUCKING CHANGE IT. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

besides, on top left, there is BS wall possible, while you need BSS at all other positions.

and the ramps surely can be made look better. i havent made inverted desert ramps so far, i think but there's a way to make them smoother
modified by flothefreak
spinesheath
I CAN open DF :p

The problem is, that I can only open it with MY editor, which I am working on right now. I can open it, but have no display or saving functions yet :p
And actually I don't plan to make it a second OSMap ;)
king of 8 plr maps
haha, floth, do you even know why we protect our maps.

Like myself, grig is an artist and he isnt easily brain washed by others on here who live in fantasy land

modified by king of 8 plr maps
5pool
keep your comments to pm's king if they don't have anything to do with the map

goes for others too.

@ grig

maps starting to look good :D keep up te good work. i just have one small concern. It seems to me there's a lot of gass on the map.

would it be an idea to remove the gas (or lower the amount in the geyser) at the center top and center bottom exps? (the ones blocked by the temples)

just a thought :)
flothefreak
dont listen to 5pool, i wouldnt answer to PMs, as i dont to you as well. KingOf8PlayerMaps - who was thrown in the air three times, but catched only twice. at leats you're a funny clown with your bullshit :D
GriG
Update map. Reduce 6 and 12 exps gas and first exps gas.
Nightmarjoo
'first exps gas' is at the nat?
That seems like a good idea. It'll run out sooner forcing players to use the islands, I like that.
GriG
Yes. 'first exps gas' = the nat gas.
modified by GriG
Nightmarjoo
now I'm confused, maybe mark it on gmcs.
GriG


In yellow circles gas is 4000. All other gas is 5000.
Cucdas
The Best Map Ever !
Grief_Stricken
not in this life...
testbug
cucdas is Grig's best friend
Grief_Stricken
however his maps are > than grig's...
Nightmarjoo
rofl

Grief! I missed you! Where have you been? I was just starting to like you and you vanished TT
Replays


--otoss vs Soviet_Elmek(1on1, 1.14)
--spinesheath vs MEGACOMP(1on1, 1.14p)
--MEGA GOSU HARD PRO COMP vs (1on1, 1.14)
--Nightmarjoo[BA] vs gogo[BA](1on1, 1.14p)
--Nightmarjoo[BA] vs Chard[BA](1on1, 1.14p)

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