|brought back to you by LGI|
2nd version with an attempt of more playabilty, possibilities and ZvT balance
|Can't you understand this creep will give zerg in the early game a huge advantage?|
As a P or T you must destroy those colonies with your first combat units otherwise Z(player) can pretty quick take and ensure the expo near to the choke or worse, build sunkens before your "door".
My God Flo, wake up man!!
|you dont know the history of this map. ZvT whining made me delete it a year ago|
|No, this doesn't give z a huge advantage. The creep doesn't prevent p and t expoing at all for one. Two, if you've ever bunker rushed or been bunker rushed you'll find that 2 scvs can kill a sunken colony before it forms. A couple sunks won't do anything to protoss. Any zerg who masses sunks like that in front of their enemy is retarded. They lose valuable drones and minerals. T can easily kill them early, or tank them later. Protoss can just ignore them or kill them =/ Also remember you have a backdoor you can take if you want to ignore the sunks.|
The creep just allows z to defend itself without having to worry about a slower economy build.
|Imo, the colony is a good idea, which i didn't tought at all. It would be a great solution for other maps just like this one, when the first nat is so away from the ramp, because when a zerg go FE, T or P can really easyly go to your main and skipping your nat. Just imagine how much time will zerg need to secure whit sunks both the exp and his main, while he is wating his creep to grow up... |
P.S. Can you delete (2)Chaos_Factor (less comments) and rename this one as (2)Chaos_Factor v1.2 or something, couse some of the poeople already got your first (2)Chaos_Factor, it was played a lot here i think. This "2nd" is just too ugly :)
modified by LGI
|Not to mention that your scouting SCV will kill off or at least bring that creep colony down to 100 HP easily before anything important happens (also, it's a 2P map, no bad scout luck = more time to kill creep colonies). Probably while still scouting from time to time.|
|yeah, i also think the colony is a cool solution.|
to the name: this version would be 1.5 now, but i want to keep it as new map. as i HATE (2)nameofthemap 2, i wanted it to be "The second chaos factor" which is slightly too long :/
i will see to it. maybe i'll call it "chaos factor 2.0", "chaos factor alpha" or similar
|Or just change the entire name ;)|
|This is cool. I like the way the main feels kind of split... and I normally hate back doors, but this one is cool, because it isn't that hard to defend.|
|should i delete the minonly expansions in the center? i think they're actually kinda useless and might become a problem for pathing once there is an expansion installed|
I also got tought a new spots for them, but only if you change the map a little more as i point this in ICQ :)
i will also touch the 3h/9h expos and reshape/remake them, but that will be the last huge change i guess
|done what i wanted. i tried to fit the new 3h/9h expos into the maptheme. name changed as well.|
|It seems hard to defend in pvz. The nat is pretty open to attack from all directions; z can build its nice affordable sunks easily with the creep there, but it might be hard for the less mobile races. Also N's nat is much farther away; it is significant enough that I suggest you try and correct it.|
|i just tested it, the distance is exact the same. both positions need 16 seconds for a probe to get to the expansion place|
only the ramps make it seem different, but the "safeness" is the same due to the walls next to the top position's ramp
fixed mineral lines and redid custom ramps
the backdoor minonly should really help securing the natural as well, concerning PvZ nat balance
modified by flothefreak
|i like it A LOT!|
|tiny update, put some crevices between creep colony and ramp so ZvP offsunk isnt overwhelming|
|Still for me is T>Z . I was hoping that it won't be the same but... Sunks are impossible to put on the right spot. The first nat choke is too wide, so sunks = gg. I tryed attacking/defending whit units but still... |
It would be nice if you watch LGI vs Nightmarjoo[BA](1on1, 1.14)
|lmao that game was hilarious. I didn't want zvz so I picked random first game and got p (lost badly, played too predictably) and then picked this map (loser's choice ftw) and picked t, what do you I won ;D|
But yeah, map is hard for z to defend zvt still and it's not too safe to expo if p 2gates. Too much room to cover with lings and sunks are largely useless because the nat is so far from the ramp =/
|how is this map hard for zvt?|
expo to backdoor min only, 3rd hatch placed so you mine gas at nat but not minerals. its same as taking an expo and it defends ramp o.O
|I believe this would work if you make the choke with the colony more narrow, cause it really is kinda impossible to stop a decent m&m force.|
|i closed down the chokepoint a little bit, put a neutral evo chamber as additional obstacle and moved gases of the naturals. now you should be able to do a 3hatch with 1 hatch at natural's gas (covering the ramp as well) and 1 other hatch at backdoor expo minerals. another hatch at the minerals of the natural closes the chokepoint totally.|
modified by flothefreak
|I think that this still doesn't help...|
|so what do you propose? maybe reduce minerals in main? you can hardly build many marines with 6 mins to mine from, and it would change TvZ gameplay more into expo than mm-rush. and it helps z with its less drones|
modified by flothefreak
|And it would kill toss in zvp.|
|can some one explain what the problem is?|
see my above post if you dont get what im confused about
modified by lnept
|That evo will hurt pathing.|
lnept I see your point, but it's generally nicer to be able to expo to a base with minerals and gas, not one or the other. Playing your way means z takes a gas only expo first in order to defend with sunks, then a mineral only, then a 2nd essentially mineral only. In most maps you get that all in one practically =/ If you take the backdoor first you have to place sunks on the creep to defend nothing. They can break the backdoor neutral and attack your backdoor, but if you waste money on sunks there you might not have enough at the front to defend against a real mnm; also if you can't take your gas early (by taking mineral only first) t can beat you with a 2raxfact thing since you lack adequat gas for mutas (or lurks if you want to get that for some reason). If you take your gas expo first so you can defend with sunks better and have gas, you lack the minerals for more lings and hatches, you'd have to take your mineral only backdoor soon which would be more minerals and you'd have 1hatch making stuff for the main, 1 to make shit after your gas is running, and 1 for your backdoor expo, and would be slow to mass troops, which would allow t an advantage.
zvp isn't too much of a problem, but defending that nat is hard imo as p vs z, and z can't safely take the nat if p tries a 2gate without sacrificing drones for lings which would slow getting your nat which would slow the gas quite a bit, which would help p. idk the map seems to favour slower expoing in zvp imo, but I don't think it creates too much of a racial balance issue at all for that mu.
|well, protoss really gains an advantage through the backdoorminonly, esp. when it comes to static defence to take the natural as 2nd expo|
|or people could stop playing like robots and be like omgZ i hAVe To mAKE tEH sunk WALL!1!!1|
you do not need to build sunkens at the backdoor minonly. just place overlord on the route and if there whole army is way over there surely you can counter with the close distances.
So your used to getting that in one package, lets just make clones everytime to experience the same gameplay!
thats what i got out of your post nightmarjoo
|well we're too much on the hardcore theorycraft line anyway -.-|
|creep on a twilight (protoss homeworld) map sucks, so i figured out another solution for the natural. i moved the minerals so a hatch at the minerals also covers the entrance very well, and i employed a stasis cell to make it slightly more dynamic.|
as i had space now behind the mineral line, and it became quite safe (which i dont want with a backdoorminonly, macro-style...) i thought of a way to implement another feature: a backdoor which i think fits perfectly in the mapstructure and -theme. it is not supposed to be deadly in early game, so i mixed a high-hp-building with a 16-each-minblockade. still offers new tactics and fits into the backdoors-style of the map.
i hope this also leads to a more micro-intensive gameplay which compensates many minerals. yet, i may have to delete the two center pillars if terran gets too strong with 3 bases. games will show.
modified by flothefreak
|updated decoration a bit. i also changed the center. i am not sure if i keep the crystals for center pillars and cliff-wall-deco, it depends how they feel/loke in game.|
|Ah I like it a lot. Only thing that's weird to me is the neutral wall followed by mineral wall.|
Perhaps some swarms on the lowground path to the backdoor?
I like the crystal pillars.
|deco and gameplay update. i somehow dont wanna use spells here....|
|The map plays OK, has that interesting backdoor thingy and stuff, but imo there should be some changes to improve gameplay much more and overall balance.|
What I suggest:
- Convert the map to 96x128.
The map just seems too big for me and in general I dislike 128x128 1v1 maps just because of the size. By reducing the width it would move all the top expos more to the left and the bottom expos more to the right, making expos easier to access, plus it would make the backdoor routes shorter and therefore more deadly. Mains would be smaller but thats OK since they already are huge. And most importantly the nat gas expo would be easier to get. This probably sounds like something really boring to do :)
- Increase main minerals from 7 to 8.
Its just a bitch for Protoss to play imo. Theres not much they can do with 7 minerals, especially ZvP when Zerg can get his 2 expos quite easily, no matter what the P's build order is.
- Push nat gas expos further away.
Really short distance between them will hurt ZvT the most imo. Push the north nat further up by deleting a huge chunk of the main cliff above (same thing for the south nat) and it would be OK.
- Protoss Temple pathfinding.
When I ordered my worker to go to the corner gas expos, it would get stuck at the stupid temple thingy. Somehow this needs to be fixed.
That's just my opinion. Nice work :D
modified by GRC-DeathLink
|I think map size is fine; increasing main minerals wouldn't hurt, I think nat position is fine (not having played this version), and I doubt the pathing is fixable.|
|thanks for your feedback|
increasing minerals to 8 seems reasonable.
changing the map into 96x128 wont be possible, though, because the mainbases would become _very_ awkward (mostly because of room at the backdoorminonly).
the only way to fix the temple-pathing would be to remove it completely. should i do that? the problem here - and the problem about making the natural safer:
Dont you think it will be too easy to grab 3 bases on this map then? if i remove the temple and tighten the natural, then expoing would get very easy, wouldnt it?
what do you think?
|last reps uploaded, fitting the pack requirements now.|
|lol how many maps are you planning on adding?|
|i made many maps while being inactive on broodwar itself. now that i'm active again, i want to playtest all those maps. as i am doing this in every MU i just set my "testing goal" fitting the requirements with at least those 18 reps. so i just add any maps having the requirement to the NMP contest. the more maps i have in it, the better are the chances of getting in, should be clear.|
and maybe it pushes others to play their maps, too.