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Last update for (2)Gotterdammerung 1.1 : 2005, 10, 23 17:28
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
306 (2)Gotterdammerung 1.1 128*128Starparty & Empyrean1.3final

The map has been rated 69 times and got a total of 92 points
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Melee

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You can rate the map here. Chose a grade between 10 (best) and 0 (worst).
Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


Starparty
Ok, so here is my and Empyreans final BlizzCon submission. As you might see it was originally a evolved version of Storm since i didnt wanna post that map cause it was made ages ago.

This map has several options:
* The 1nat is expable from both sides. if you exp close, you get gas, but if you exp at "min only" side, you get choke coverage. This might play interesting in differentt zerg match ups. Also the mineral in that nat is decreased to 1000 to avoid terran powering up too much vs protoss.

The side paths are blocked just like on Storm to make new routes open up the longer you play. all exps are quite easy to take but can be harrased in someway almost everywhere. The stray minerals on the sides have no real point except as decoration, and perhaps someone will udse them in a cool way :)

We hope You like it just as much as we do!
AiurZ
This map is very very nice.

The middle seems cramped because of all the obstructing doodads. How is unit pathing through the middle? Do units get stuck en route?
Starparty
No doodads in the center hider unit movement. all the shiny stuff is walkable
Your Name
The large shiny things in the crevices are not walkable.

The outcropping of rocks are not walkable.

When I was creating Tiamat, I tried decorating the middle but found there is only 1 doodad for crevices that is walkable, and that is the subtle brightness under the crevices.

BTW I just tested this in Single Player to make sure :O
Starparty
well i cant remove them now anyway, and still they are very small :p i see no issue in having them there
Starparty
but thatnks for clearing that up!
Empyrean
I noticed that but didn't bother to tell you. If anything it should hinder Zerg in ZvP because it will be harder to control Hydralisks. Just take a look at what happened to Forest of Abyss. Drunk map designer + mass trees = Hydralisk rape.
Starparty
LOL!
Bbbut
I like the mineral blocking, that adds a lot to late game strategy.
But natural on main hill and 3 gas around is just BGH fast map style. Can't stand it.

Maybe you could try out the suggestions I did in the GMCS? ;)
Starparty
No, that woul destroy the entire concept of the map, and also give NO easy expansions to hold. 3 gas around bgh style? you just try and hold those 3 gases too :P

if you fe 1nat gas you get no choke cover. If you choke cover you get no gas :P
Bbbut
"if you fe 1nat gas you get no choke cover. If you choke cover you get no gas :P"

Every zerg will go choke hatch (=nat. min), than expo down, than gas in main since with that many resources he would need another hatch anyway...
Starparty
Then the 3rd gas will be delayed thus alowing, for example, protoss to mass up a little bit before being overwhelmed. note that p generally can easy fe WITH gas, whilst Zerg must fe WITHOUT gas. This will make interesting scenarios definitely.

Either way, im sorry to say that i think your comments in GMCS will not aid in making the map better.
Listoric
I really really like this map. Especially the double use of the nat at your main.

I'd build the 2nd hatch at choke, 3rd at gas side and built some lings to cover the choke, then muts or lurks or even both. BUT, i can't imagine how to play as a T or P with the nat there. Hope to see some reps on this map. Definetively a torunament map for the next tourney, just to see what tactics look like.

Really like it!
Daleadil
I love the yin-yang feel of it.
Using a dark tile and the light tile at it's reflected position gives it an omnious feel. Shit dude, if this doesn't win Blizzcon, I don't know what will.
Starparty
im blusching ^^
panschk
A clanmate of me, who is involved in the creation of the EPS Ladder mappack, asked me if the map could be involved in their mappack. Should be no problem I suppose. Better make sure your obs version works though^^
panschk
SP, I hope that is ok to you?^_^; EPS is quite a big thing, could be good promotion for your map.
Starparty
sure why not :)
Starparty
got obs vers
Empyrean
Could you include "Modified by Empyrean" somewhere? I don't really think I deserve the "made by Starparty & Empyrean" label T_t
Starparty
stop being modest :P

Empyrean
;)
Starparty
Can BlizzCon every update their site ;P If it wasnt for the deadline date id say the competition STILL was up :///
panschk
broodwar.de newspost
Starparty
i dont really care about the rights.
Yes i submitted the map, but its up to ESL if they want to use it. Its not like anyone is complaining about the use of luna forte etc? :P It might be less chance for winning blizzcon, but then i won a place in ESL instead.

If it wins blizzcon then i get eplays of boxer etc
if it doesnt win i STILL get replays of schnibl0r and breakdown etc. So there is no loosing here.

And im always so amused when xuul posts his normal mature comments.
Starparty
the map was newly created for blizzcon. it was published AFTER the deadline :P
panschk
It's strange though, XuuL is very mannered and friendly to me and most other ppl. What did you do to him?^^
Listoric
*cough* creating better maps than him *cough*
Starparty
word
Daleadil
lol
Djin)Xuul(
lol, i never attacked starparty personally... i just said his maps sux as they rly do
i guess they r just bad cause he is a bad BW player
let me take this map as a further example

- there is no expo to fight for... if so owns the cliff he owns 3 expos... the one guy with those 2 ramps at his side will automatically own those expos

- the fly-only expo is boring, since it can be attacked by the cliff

- free gasnat at a normal base with 1 entrance => money map... its just stupid, okay... if so likes it, hF, but that has nothing to do with building a good balanced map

- the only thing i can mention as good is the middle... it has enough room for good battles (which is not common for starparty´s maps)

to get it in a whole:
- bad mineralconcept
- bad expoplacements
- good middle

this map is okay, u can play it for sure... but starparty´s always doing like "wow, look at my great gozu maps"... thats just so lol and calls that "your maps sux" reactions of me

as this map is just average, he is an average mapmaker.. thats all ^^
Starparty
"lol, i never attacked starparty personally... "

"i guess they r just bad cause he is a bad BW player"

"as this map is just average, he is an average mapmaker.. thats all ^^"

You've already embarassed yourself enough. But sure go on making an even worse ass of yourself.
________________________________________________

This is the post on TL.net where im saying "look at my great gozu map"

"Ok, so here is my and Empyreans final BlizzCon submission. As you might see it was originally a evolved version of Storm since i didnt wanna post that map cause it was made ages ago.

This map has several options:
* The 1nat is expable from both sides. if you exp close, you get gas, but if you exp at "min only" side, you get choke coverage. This might play interesting in differentt zerg match ups. Also the mineral in that nat is decreased to 1000 to avoid terran powering up too much vs protoss.

Edit: Also the small blockades has 8 minerals so scouts can mine them open so p can get optional flankingspace. The large blocks on ramps has 500 each so when you take the exp you can mine it for say 5 minutes before it goes open.

The side paths are blocked just like on Storm to make new routes open up the longer you play. all exps are quite easy to take but can be harrased in someway almost everywhere. The stray minerals on the sides have no real point except as decoration, and perhaps someone will udse them in a cool way

We hope You like it just as much as we do!"

Damn im so arrogant.

By now i'm getting very very tired of your stupid theoretically-based comments. It is not like Electronic sports league came to YOU and asked for your _awesome_ productions. Your idea of balance seems to be like: "i dont like when z fe's, they should do some lings and own".

So by this conclusion i HUMBLY beg of you to put your awesome analyzing up your ass. "^^"





Djin)Xuul(
y u start flaming ?

the facts are obvious as they are shared by a lot of ppl at TL.net
Starparty
noone has ever stated any of your conclusions at TL.net.
Starparty
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=30449

random quotes:
"Well, I like it. Looks like it would be conducive to creativity, and interesting play."

"Hmm... an interesting idea. I'm not sure how to evaluate the map, balance-wise, because I don't fully understand the effects of having such a mineral-reduced nat in your main while having your 2nd nat quite in the open."

"I like it when maps require thinking so I can play mind games with my opponents"
panschk
XuuL, the "free" expansion in the main has only 5 mineral stones with value 1000, not really worth all that much. The secound expo is not that easy to get, and even in lategame, there is something to fight for of course. When mining the minerals next to your 2. expo, you gain access to the part of the map that is'owned' by your opponent. If he isn't terran who already has some tanks at this expo, you should be able to attack his eco there.

and pls stop flaming you 2 :(
Bbbut
"the "free" expansion in the main has only 5 mineral stones with value 1000, not really worth all that much."

That's still 5000 Mins and a full gas! (And if it wasn't worth much, than he could have left it out...)

But Xuul got some valid points here. Look at the currently played maps, that are agreed to be "balanced". None of them has a two gas main combined with good defendable expos all over.
So when people mention they don't think this map turn out balanced, SP aswers like this???

"Your idea of balance seems to be like: 'i dont like when z fe's, they should do some lings and own'."

Oh, and btw. if you only want to get a lot of positive comments while leaving out all the bad ones, just do 3 gas 12 patch main. Zergs gonna love you.
There is one simple map making rule, if you get a lot of positive reactions your map either favors one race or it's a LT clone!
Listoric
Well, i haven't seen a map which has only positive comments so far, especially the LT clones are all imbalanced but players like it even if it is so.

Then, it's an experiment, something new, and if Zerg takes his natural and builds 3 sunkens to defend his nat and choke, or you expand like it is here, with 3 sunkens. It's almost the same, except that it's easier to defend but fewer minerals instead. The other expansions are easier to kill so Z isn't really favoured.

For me, the concept looks good, new and interesting, and why do all complain about something new? because they like to stick to old conventions, that's only human.

People have different opinions, and these opinions should be made with _good_ critics. If you don't like the author, than it's your personal problem.

And to all of you who say "Starparty is arrogant and he loves his maps and thinks that he is the best mapmaker in the world", well, sorry, but i like my maps as well, and think they are underrated, as almost everyone thinks.

That's why we are here, creating maps, and show them to other mappers to find flaws. Gosh, that really goes on my nerves "he suxx" "his maps are standard" HELL, if you don't like it, give REAL critics, not that random flame bullshit please. That'S not the kindergarden or something... geez...
Daleadil
I agree with Listoric.
You can't please everyone.
People have different tastes.
Djin)Xuul(
that map isnt sth new... money maps are as old as starcraft :P

lis: calm down, i made objective critics... anyways, i say what i want to and i dont flame anywhere, kk?
Listoric
I am calm :) You don't wanna see me if i'm really in rage :D

Question: What do you think "that map isnt sth new... money maps are as old as starcraft :P" or "i guess they r just bad cause he is a bad BW player" is?

a) a good and helpfull critic
b) a flame against the map
c) a flame against the autor
d) random blabla

Answer: For me it's all except a), now think about your way of giving "objective critics" please.

btw, this goes out to all of the "good criticers" (<- ?!) out there.

to the map: as easy it is to take the first inner base expansion, as hard is it, to defend all other expansions. They all are very open, remindong me of the min-only at 3 o'clock on LT a bit, and so it should be even again. Then, the inner base expansion isn't as worthy as a real expansion, except the gas. If a zerg really has a bigger advantage through that, then on "normal" outer base natruals, will be seen after some games. I'm really looking forward to the League Day 5 where Gtterdmmerung is the first map. People will have trouble with that kind of idea first, as always on something newer, but i really doubt that this will give any race a real advantage.

Word! :)
panschk
It's not a zerg map imo. You have to 3-hatch to take the gas of the expansion if you want to defend with sunken. All races can take this expansion quite easily. XuuL, saying this map is a "money map" is just wrong, you just say it to provocate :(
Starparty
________________________________________________
So when people mention they don't think this map turn out balanced, SP aswers like this???

"Your idea of balance seems to be like: 'i dont like when z fe's, they should do some lings and own'."
________________________________________________

Please, understand the history of bad comments and bullsh*t posted the last months before analyzing my latest reply.

I refuse to stop making maps because some people dont like them and cant behave because of that. Peatza quit, and we lost a great mapmaker there. Im really glad that the majority of the people here actually seems to understand my point of view in this, because otherwise id be way to bored and frustrated to keep producing.
Listoric
I've added the EPS game between Stormy and Gentleman (thx to panschk for mentioning it).

Absolutely worth to download :)
Starparty
that was a nice game :9 The cannonrush behind the mineral wall was cute ;)

To bad P didnt mass up an army too, or atleast defended the corners better
Starparty
1.1 released
flothefreak
well, this seemed to be the only way.
Just a thought: maybe you can use tileset indexed to make the passage for the workers as smal as possible, so it remains unwalkable for larger units.
Starparty
But i want it like this i think. There was no real point in having total block there except the fact to try and be inovative. But on the expense of playability.
Listoric
As it is now, i'd pull the left expansion a bit downwards. because it's easier to kill the workers on right expansion, than on the left.
Starparty
positional flaw >_<


  
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--iv.StOrMy vs DkH.Gentleman(1on1, 1.13)
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