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Last update for (2)Creeper : 2012, 09, 05 03:15
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4521 (2)Creeper 128*128CardinalAllin0.3betaground

The map has been rated 54 times and got a total of 15 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


CardinalAllin
1st September 2012
Version 0.9 Creeper
A 1vs1 concept map.

Features:
1. Creep Spawners. The backdoor Thirds are covered by creep, but there are no creep colonies that Protoss or Terran can kill.

2. Cover tiles. The green squares act like a 50 percent effective darkswarm.

2. When using the observer version, the map is greyed out rather than blacked out, so the layout of bases and terrain is visible.

Freakling
So Zerg trivially get a very early third gas up while T/P have no chance to ever use the second nat...

Not a good idea.
Taranok
its specifically for ZvZ if you haven't seen the thread on TL

esp: for lategame
modified by Taranok
CrystalDrag
so you are just using this site as a download place...

if you want no mutalisk then just leave minerals.
Freakling
Using BWMN as a "download place" is perfectly all right, in fact it's a good thing and definitely encouraged, it's what the site is for.

I don't think he wants to discourage mutalisks too much... But adding more cover areas would actually boost hydras a lot against mutas... But it would also make Ling shred Hydras like no tomorrow... Basically more of a tech degeneration than a real late game approach...

You also said on TL, the map were supposed to "still [be] somewhat balanced for the non mirror matchups". Which it is not, right now. Both PvZ and TvZ will be nothing short of pure hell, believe me.
In PvZ Zerg can turtle with a single sunken, and if Z decides to go for 3 base Hydra break, P has no chance to scout it, let alone get a successful counter attack.
In TvZ Zerg will just get a much earlier third gas and Hive tech into defilers without the need to worry too much about defence. But at least if Terran survives the early onslought he has a chance to turtle on that ridge and get three fast additional gasses up... 5 gas terran vs. 6 gas Zerg should actually be a good stand for T.

But it also means that the expo placement is bad and the map is way too turtlish.
CrystalDrag
If you dont use it for feedback...
and there is no mutalisk in this tournament i think..
CardinalAllin


@Freakling:
First of all, let me establish this map is basically only a sketch of the main, nat and 3rd, and is in no way a complete map that I will try to defend as a good map. I think this is pretty obvious though. All Im trying to do with this sketch is share a setup designed to encourage ZvZ lategame and hopefully swap ideas on this subject.

(As an aside I think this website would greatly benefit from a paint style sketchpad so we could easily share ideas rather than having to do what Ive done here.)

With that in mind Ill continue.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/405_Central_Plains

Central Districts was a Protoss favoured map. The PvPs on it were turtly to begin with because of the map layout but were still fun games due to featuring a higher stage of unit composition. Arbiters were consistently used. Of the 70 players sent out on it, 60 were Protoss.

Ive read before that most people here do not like the idea of 1 matchup maps. While they are interesting experiments, I dont like 1 matchup maps either. One good thing about them though is the strategies mature faster. If a map is heavily favoured to one race, more games of that mirror matchup are played on it. Central Districts is a good PvP example, Geometry for TvT and the map named Alternative has very developed ZvZ strats.


Central Plains has 10 minerals in the main and 8 at the natural. It has two backdoor bases all connected by thin ramps. These are some of the reasons it was a Protoss map.
Why does Central Districts possess a higher stage of unit composition?
Was it due to
1. the backdoor expos? The turtly nature of the map meaning higher tech in general is favoured? Recall was necessary?
2. the 10 and 8 mineral patches? The immediate buff to Protoss, meaning that only Protoss practiced for the map. More PvPs were played on it so the strategy was developed more?


What if Central Districts was changed to have 9 and 7, and wider ramps, but it still kept the two backdoor expos. Would it still be a PvP map? Would it be a balanced map but PvPs still have the higher stage of unit composition?

Alternatively what if the map had 10 and 8 minerals but the expansions werent backdoor ones. They would still have thin ramps but wouldnt be backdoor. Would the map consistently feaute the higher stage of unit composition?
A better way of putting it; Its easy to make maps that favour one race. What if we could make maps that favour a more developed lategame mirror matchup like Central Districts. Then take that knowledge and make balanced maps that still feature the developed lategame. Players would be able to carry the experience gained from the early map too.



On this map (creeper), Zerg trivially getting an expansion is indeed silly. Creep colonies can easily be added. It changes everything for the non mirrors but is manageable. (apart from the main nat 3rd, the rest of the map is filler). Meanwhile would ZvZ be affected much? There is a problem that the muta player would snipe the creep colonies and then the turtle player wouldnt be able to place spores there without making the hatchery first. This is the main reason for using creep spawners in the first place. However, Im happy to put creep colonies instead of creep spawners. But the real meat of this map is the concept of lategame ZvZ. Put simply, is it guaranteed to occur on this map?

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/238_Judgment_Day

Judgment Day is a pro map with a backdoor 3rd off the natural. Zerg has winning percentage for both ZvT and ZvP. And quite a few more ZvZs were played on it that the other mirrors. Interestingly however, of the 492 players sent out on it, 189 were zerg, which is only 38 percent. Not quite as high as one might expect?

Are there any other maps with this backdoor 3rd off the natural? What are your opinions of this setup?

What do you think would be a great way of advancing ZvZ while not deviating from current build orders too far (both for ZvZ and for other matchups).
Ofcourse one could make a map with 3 gas and 20 minerals in the main and ZvZ would be spectacular.
Have you guys ever sketched or made some maps trying to primarily affect ZvZ?
The only one I have seen so far is the 2 player ash map by greatnoob which altered unit stats and other things which I dont like.
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=3843
modified by CrystalDrag
CardinalAllin
@crystaldrag, ah you posted a second comment while I was writing the above one. In reply to your second comment, I do use the site for feedback and I post replies to comments.

Ribbons ZvZ tourny has a 'No spire rule' but I didnt make this map for the tourny. I sketched the map a while ago, and then when I saw the tourny I dug it up and made it playable. But its completely intended for normal ZvZ. I just thought that while the ZvZ tour was on it would be a good opportunity to share it. I probably shouldnt have but, I dunno, I got excited.

Edit: Also for the record, I love the ZvZ matchup, and I do understand it so we can talk strategies in depth if needed.

And lastly, this map was meant to have 10 minerals in the main, just noticed it only has 9 atm. It has 8 at the natural. But ofcourse if the creep spawners were being changed to creep colonies then this would all be altered.
modified by CardinalAllin
Freakling
you could use stacked neutral colonies to prevent Mutas from sniping them. It would also prevent P and T from grabbing a too fast 3rd, but not making the expo totally unusable for those races.
If you definitely want to avoid colonies, you can place creep spawners anywhere (including on the water) and they do still work, so you could create a creep area that would not block building space for a Nexus/CC (but most likely would prevent any turrets/cannons though).
If you are afraid of Mutas sniping player build colonies, observe that building and then destroying these will remove the creep of a creep spawner (creep spawners only spawn creep at gamestart).

If you want to weaken Muta ZvZ you should add more cover areas, for example in the center, but also around the Expos were Hydras could be used for defense. Not too many though, or Lings (and Lurkers) would just shred everything.

If you want to implement new site features you may want to contact panschk. I doubt though, that he'll be willing to put much work into anything himself. But probably you know some one who's good at website scripting...
CardinalAllin
Putting the creep spawners in the water so they make an area of creep but dont block a cc or nexus, yeah thats a cool idea. I did actually think of doing this too. Stacking creep colonies I also thought of. Both are useful.

I do not believe that a Zerg can get hydra before muta at the top pro level. You would still get mutalisks on this map, and then hive. The idea is that on this map a player would want to get spores and hive to better his chances of winning.

I asked lots of questions in the big reply above so if you or anyone want to later come back and talk some more on the subjects that would be great.
Freakling
The chalenge is to get enough eco to throw down a third hatch ASAP without delaying muta tech. A Hive should be less of a problem.

However, if you go Hydra instead of Muta the third Hatch is less of a problem, but also very needed to get the Hydra counts to prevail against Muta play. I think four Hatch simcity with sunken defence at the entrance could even be possible... If you can hold the choke the map might play out much like Arcanoid ZvZ (the only map I can think of were 3gas Zerg appeared as a standard BO, but that's because it's an island map at start).
The main difference to typical backdoor nats (p.e. God's Garden) is, that you don't have a safe backddoor to take but always need to secure your nat first. That neans that any 12-Hatch B.o. that does not instantly loose to a fast pool will get an increasingly stronger advantage as the game goes on... So I guess you at least succeed in making people go for a more macroish ZvZ playstyle at least...
CrystalDrag
read it
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