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Last update for (4) Rivalry Renewedv0.4 : 2017, 09, 14 04:18
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4963 (4) Rivalry Renewedv0.4 128*128EywaSC0.2betaground

The map has been rated 27 times and got a total of 5 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


eywa-
Looking for feedback, the Protoss Temples are 5 stacks, mineral only are 1000 minerals.
JungleTerrain
Horizontal spawns you will have a path-issue problem. Not sure how big it will be but seems kinda unnecessary since the temples don't really add anything to gameplay. If anything they appear to try to mitigate the bad use of symmetry since horizontal spawns are just too close otherwise

The naturals are really wide and open, making PvZ really difficult as FFE isn't really feasible, so Protoss will have to go 1base builds like fastcyber or 2gate. I don't see how a Protoss could protect their nat from hydras.

Recommend having a cliff behind the natural for muta harass, unless you decide to keep the map Z>p how it is now.

I'm not sure how often the open expos will be taken (like 3, 9 o clock, or 12 and 6 o clock ground expansions not the islands). I don't mean it like I don't think they will be used, just thinking as a player I prefer expansions with choke points to hold.

There's really no point to the raised jungle in the mains, I think you should get rid of it. And maybe add +1 patch to the islands so players will be more incentivized to take them.

Mains look to be on the side of big... not sure.

I feel like it's kinda hard to go wrong with such a standard map, if you fix a lot of these things it should play solid. The middle being an open wasteland is a bit boring imo, maybe use some high ground?
Freakling
Well, to put things into perspective a bit:
This is probably as much as you can really do remaking a Blizzard map:
.
eywa-
@Freakling, that's kind of the point, it was inspired by that map :).

I actually took the inspiration to remake a Blizzard map from Neo Medusa.
eywa-
@jungleterrain

The temples aren't so much to limit the horizontal rush distance as they are to create another dynamic to allow the natural to become more open without it being immediately exposed. I could easily remove them and just put some cliffs to block vision (but not for drops), therefore making the map much more standard. I just kind of wanted to see how they play first.

I was hoping that the wide open natural would go both ways in PvZ, for the Zerg, it's a lot harder to take and hold a 3rd, for the Protoss, it's harder to take the natural right away. If you think it's too much of an advantage, then I could perhaps narrow it down to make it more standard, but then I would have to add another mechanic to favor Zerg for Muta harass.

I might add some small cliffs to create a bit of a choke point at 3, 6, 9 & 12.

Does Raised Jungle count as High Ground for Vision? I was hoping to create an additional, unconventional way to harass the opponent's main (mostly for Terran & Zerg - if it's high ground vision).

The mains are supposed to be similarly sized to FS (that's what I based it on, I might be a bit off, but it should be similar)

If I have an update, can I just put it over top of this one? Or how does that work exactly?
Freakling
Raised Jungle is low ground, High Raised Jungle is medium ground.

The only similarities between the Blizzard map Medusa and the Kespa era (Neo) Medusa are the map name and the tileset...
Eywa-
@Freakling
The base layout is the same as well, the high ground around the main.

Similarly, the main mechanic here that remains is the bridges on either side.
JungleTerrain
Oh for some reason I didn't even notice the large ramp into the main. This is even worse for Protoss vs zerg, no way to block the ramp and prevent runbys.

As for the nat, this "dynamic" you are referring to, the nat is already super open, and killing the temples makes it even more open. I don't see how this is a good idea.

If your concept or dynamic limits player's options without providing them other options, you are simply limiting a player's options and this is almost never a good idea.

So here the main ramp is hard to block, its hard to wall, its hard to fast expand, so players are not encouraged to FE at all. So players will probably go for the more oldschool builds like 2gate robo into FE. I still see FD happening on this map in TvP, but i also think 1015gate could be really strong.

ZvP will just be imbalanced. If you FE you will have a hard time surviving hydra busts or speedling runbys or all-ins.

1gate tech vs Z is just not good enough against modern zergs and forcing protoss into 2gate as a result is not good as well. I honestly think 1gate zealot pressure into FE against zerg is the best way to play PvZ right now so if a map does not allow this option I just don't see how the map could be balanced pvz.

In TvP, it's not even an option to 14cc and set up a bunker for the dragoons, it's just too open and the dragoons have too many angles to hit the buildings or runby or other shenanigans.
Eywa-
@JungleTerrain

I see your point and I tend to agree, PvZ early game would be a nightmare, so I made a few modifications, I removed the temples, just put simple high ground.

I also put 0 value minerals on the bridges to make it a little more difficult to get in via the small bridge. I'm not sure if I should move this right next to the nat, or not, I put it a bit further out so that the Protoss has to put in some work to scout it.

I also put some high ground throughout the middle of the map and added some choke points for the expansions at 3, 6, 9 & 12.

Also (not seen in the image), I added 1 mineral patch to each island expansion.
Clipse
You may want to check your extended bridges and ramps with the microtile overlay impassable and height respectively. As you used some tiles with impassable microtiles to build the centre of your bridges and your ramps have tiles with low ground microtiles after the low to high ground transition.

There are also some positional imbalances you may want to have a look at:
- Namely blue and purple have a much harder time using the small bridges to get into the middle left and right base respectively than red and teal due to how the high ground is positioned and acts as a secoknd choke for blue and purple when they try to get into that base.
- Terran also cant add a comsat in purples natural but can in all 3 other naturals.

Also the droppable high ground in front of the natural is going to be an issue in any vT matchup, as it essentially allows terran to contain the natural with way less stuff than they'd usually need thanks to the added survivability of tanks on inaccesible high ground.
modified by Clipse
JungleTerrain
Agree with clipse about the symmetry on the left and right middle bases. That's an easy fix.

Definitely make sure all the nats can make comsats :O

And what droppable high ground are you talking about? The temple?

Also, it looks like you can tank the naturals from the other side of the high ground clutter, at least the gases.
Clipse
Yeah im talking about the temple, tanks on that temple cover the whole area in front of the larger bridge. Add in some spider mines and terran has a super easy contain on the main exit of the natural.

Then send said vultures to guard the small bridge and terran gets a decent contain for the price of 1 dropship 2 tanks and 4-6 vultures.
modified by Clipse
Eywa-
I'll fix the Purple natural and the bridges/ramps today. I'm not overly concerned about any slight I'm balances for Terran (the temple), (tankable naturals) because the map isn't for the Korean pro scene, and in general foreign Terrans really struggle to place well in events.
Eywa-
v0.3 Edit
Changed Path region for main gas collection
Edited Back High Jungle

v0.4 Edit
Fixed Comsat issue at 4th Natural
Fixed impassable area on bridges
Fixed ramp terrain bugs
Removed high ground blocking top 3 oclock and bottom 9 oclock bridges.
Freakling
In vertical spawn positions, and also somewhat in horizontal, it is just slow push and take expansions along the tight paths for Terran.

The problem with remaking old Blizzard map concepts is that they are usually simply bad, not just execution-wise but also conceptually. If you really want to go with the premise of a Blizzard map remake, just going with a very general idea or key concept of a map you want to recreate and then completely rethinking all the rest is the only way one can really make it work in the context of a modern meta.
Eywa-
@freakling honestly, very little remains of the initial map, there are only a couple bridges along the side. Everything else is pretty much completely revamped. I might cut down the sides to only one bridge if it's terribly imbalanced, but I think in the foreign scene Terran va Protoss is probably the matchup with the lowest winrate (not counting scan)
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