|no password, so anyone can edit it. No image too, because there is not much yet. I would love if someone who has more talent then me for shapes would help me creating beatiful layout. |
I think flo will be a good help with work on detail ;]
Please only edit in SCMdraft or Staredit!
|Oh sh!t. compter crashed and killed the mapfile in the process (I had saved T_T)|
|Well I'll just do a new try. Man my pc is really a piece of shit now.|
|A version I would like.|
As it will be easier for Z to make an expo on this map, I thought about minonly-naturals.
For equalizing, I put some (cliffable)gasexpos between the bases (creep intended there), so it will be still possible to get 2nd gas relatively soon.
If there is much creep in the center, you cannot build on a lot of space, so I made the mainbases very large for p/t (think of it in 2on2!)
I pointed out with hatcheries to see by the creep how far from choke I would place the naturals
this concept has a stylish feeling, too because of the mainbase-gasexpo-mainbase-gasexpo-etc-shapes.
I think there can be made a very beautiful map out of this.
cliffshapes are mostly random, didn't put effort in details there for it will maybe be changed again.
should be basic enough imo, for the main idea is very experimental anyway ;)
|i dont understand what you are experimenting :o|
|read the correspondent forum thread by panschk?|
|didnt even know you had forums, dont have to be so sarcastic about it.|
well, your teasing post deserved it :o
|He wasnt teasing? :P|
|if I was a real badass, i'd go for "dont have to be s sarcastic about it."|
|If it must be a zerg homeland, then ashworld is better. Flothefreak, said that this could be a beatiful map, but i think that the zerg race, don't care about shits like this. They want BLOOD, DARKNESS, etc, etc... We have to make the map more creppy, and scary, something like Black Lung, and the name should be creppy too >:E|
|A name like "ass rape"?8[|
No just joking.How about "the other side"?
|If youre making such experimental stuff in the map, make the layout basic so player can focus on the weird stuff instead of a weird map..|
made a fast paint sketch
|The image link shows a preview I like a lot. I think we could go for something like this.|
For mapname, I have a new idea because of the look it has now: Valley of the swarm, because if we connect the mainbases with cliffs (not walkable, but from the looks) we would have a "valley" in the middle.
We need to do something about the center..
How about a really rich expansion in the center (10/2 or something), where you need to kill THE OVERMIND to take it? Some lesser expansions could be blocked by cerebrats :]
|Btw, when i see the map at a closing state, i can think of a something more Deep, Dark, Twisted, Mystycal, Night, Atmospheric name, it might be somethling a little sick too, but with no bad words :))) . I just have this in my blood.|
P.S. I hate map names, that are given only for the look of the map, or something that is connected with brood war.
|How about we recreate the last scenario in sc original where you kill the overmind and have a big zerg neutral base in the center with the overmind as cenetr piece? |
The map name could be "Showdown"
|show down is a really old map (name's taken)|
if you guys are serious about this then don't forget to make a decent map. it doesn't have to be fancy, just good.
|a zerg map should have a zerg name though, I actually like SC names where they make sense.|
|did an update, (not playable yet)!|
Well I'd say let's stay in SE a bit longer decoration) and put just zerg stuff for player 5 for now. We can add the real neutral buildings later.
|hm, as it is now, the map looks very zergy to me (think of the creep)...|
even with the minonly natural.
maybe let's make the center a bit smaller
btw, did you know, this will be the first map with a real hidden tech for ZERG
|btw, valley of the swarm sounds not good to me...|
I'd go for "Valleys of Char" or "Caldera of Char". here we'd have a connection in name with legacy of char, dunno if this is good or bad.
if not, I prefer Home of the Swarm to the new name actually
|maybe something with _brood_ in it?|
I don't think zerg will use the creep very often actually. There will be some heroes for toss to get for sure. Terran will probably have to play drop heavy against toss here, at least all those neutral expos are cliffable.
terran is probably still at disadvantage here..
|the creep is great for zerg|
imagine how effective a hyd/lurk/ling contain can get here with sunks as backup (40dmg/hit). then, zerg can expand MUCH earlier, because he can start sunkens when he starts making hatch- this protects the hatchery very effective for it is often kicked right in the time between starting hatch and popping out of sunken colonies.
Valley of the broods
Home of the broods
best would be to put 1-3 heroes right into the tossbase, cuz if not, zerg will use small forces of lings to go for kicking _all_ those units in earlygame before p gets speedlots
|Still too open. since z gets the creep, dont over power them even more with a very open map.|
|that's what I meant|
|everything is too big|
and call it "Brood War" ^_^
|this is actually no bad idea oO|
for it will be the first map with those means in melee mode, it should have a striking name that marks it as the base for further experiments on creep.
brood war is more than a joke to me...it could be the actual name
|I wasn't joking.|
|1) wallins tested|
2) You don't need to kill creep to build center expo. only overmind (Very strong thing this is actually)
3) I consider this "final" now, at least it should be playable and all. Still you can improve it if you want.
|any other changes? if not, I'll go for some deco|
|I think it' pretty good. Maybe try to improve pos. balancing with the edit, it's really not very good right now (rocks in the middle are pretty randomly distributed)|
Also be careful with some bigger doodads in SCMdraft. Those trees will only be displayed bottom part default wise. And don't add doodads that have anything to do with civilisation of course :)
I use to check every cliff in such badlands-maps, to make sure I have the right feeling. You will see only few "devices" in origo hills for example, though I didn't go for 100% there cuz I had no reason. here, I'll do all about grass and rocks ;)
|are you sure that you want to keep those large walls closing the gasexpos from one side?|
I imagine it very annyoing when T can kick your expo very fast from behind...would like to change that, too actually
|the map would lose style then, so we'd have to think of s.th. new|
|answer, panschk ~~|
|well, we need some terran stuff, otherwise this map will be heavily imbalanced. You can change it, but make sure it is not all open, there should be some cliffs limiting the flanking room a bit somewhere, and making defending an expansion possible.|
|how about this?|
I only updated image so far, tell me what you think about it. it's of course not as stylish as your solution, but it seems more playable to me.
we could also think about blocking neutral buildings (zerebrats?) that lie in the entry to those gasexpos. you'd have to destroy them, and until taht, it's some kind of isle.
and this kind of expos would favor p/t more than zerg...
|The thing that i really hate about this map is the center two expands. They are so close, and when units passing trough there if the expands are taken it will be VERY BAD, and this is center... I think it will be much better MUCH BETTER if you just make the expands on the other side of the wall. They will face to the players. Something like in Wizzy Noise.|
|Well, there´s only one overmind though...Or should we have 2, just to make it more playable. Or do we just say you dont have to kill overmind to get expo?|
Maybe make it fly-to?
|which expo are you talking about right now, panschk? the normal gasexpos or the one in the center?|
I think the center expo is good as it is. it's 2on2 map, and there is really enough space for mass attacks around it. I'd only fear zerg taking this expo very fast :< but we'll see
concerning the other gas expos:
Do ya think they're good in this set-up? And do you think we should block the entrance by neutral buildings?
|sorry i didn't read all the posts but if this is supposed to be a zerg themed map shouldn't there be more gas ? I mean at least on the nats jeeze.|
|It's not supposed to be a zerg-imba-map T_T|
|exactly: It is supposed to be a zerg-themed map, but balanced and suited for competive play.|
You did not remove any of the neutral buildings, did you? So the expos are still blocked by cerebrats and overminds (btw an image made with scmdraft includes all this stuff, would be better )
|oh and of course we talk about central expansion:|
1) they are on the shortest way between cross players, so units would actually walk through them , this is a problem.
2) They are blocked by overmind, This is an important feature imo :O
a) make it a fly to expanion. Would solve any pathing problems and would actually suit the idea as the middle being something special. Plus it will oviously be hittable with tanks from the outside, which would help balancing.
b) try to rearrange the expo like LGI suggested. Not my favorite solution, because of the fact that overmind-blocking would not make much sense then
c) Remove center expansion completely, would be an option too
|don't tell me now those buildings have already been made as neutral and stuff...|
I opened in SE xtra and made my changes there :<
|Of course they were|
I already played some games with the zerg stuff around and all...
Well then we should ask ourselves if we want to use your version and put the zerg stuff again, or mine, that you edit IN SCMDRAFT/Starforge.
|what would be more work?|
have no idea how long it takes to create those neutral buildings&creep
|No really much. You just place them like any other unit too. |
Finish the decoration then, so that I only need to put those doodads.
|new picture, made most part of the terrain so far.|
looks better ingame than on pic, I know^^
|going for doodads soon :)|
|And then upload it too^^|
You have a mission, flo ;D
|finally finished it|
1647 doodads is a new record, I guess
don't worry, 95% of them are walk- and buildable^^
I choose the most lame but most balancing idea for the center
hope ya like it :)
|Is there any sprites left for the game? Or are dooads only terrain?|
Okay, I will start putting zerg stuff then ;]
|Wow, ingame it looks incredible, thanks flo ;)|
I had to re-arrange the center expansion a bit to make it possible to place a CC+addon without having to kill the creep colony. Killing the overmind will take long enough^^
I also made the left neutral expansion a bit bigger, now it has about equal size as the others.
Now what type of units did I put:
creep as you can see easily.
overmind with armor (very strong) at centre expo
cerebrats at neutral expansions
the following are all heroes, I refer to the corresponding basic units:
Ultralisk near the players ramp.
guardian at the cliff of each neutral exp
overlord near each players nat plus 2 near the centre
queen at the broken cliff midway between nat and center
defiler near the main minerals
If you get a spellcaster, all casts will be researched for them and they have almost full E. so pretty useful!
I think this map could reall rock, I'm proud of us!
|ya, there is no map so far in which I made so much effort in decoraion as this...|
should be quite balanced actually...
z-no doubt about that, strong creep, strong center, but only minonly, not easy defendable 2nd gas
t-bad center, but can attack and defend middle expo best, plus having cliffs at every important neutral expo
p-in pvz, good, z only minonly nat, bad open center for protoss, but having the heroes roxx. this should actually even pvz out, I think.
in pvt, well, I guess this will be REALLY hard for terran...I hoped that the setup of the neutral gas expos favor terran in this MU enough to equalize this. games will show if it works.
|TvP was my biggest concern too. But I think it's doable. There is no huge flanking room anywhere, so no space a terran can never cross unless he has superior unit count. Well we need some test games ;)|
|fixed wallin problem at top left base and added flothefreaks name to description ;]|
|hm, there's only creep in the middle...|
can you put permanent creep without buildings? if not, maybe add some neutral (standard) zerg buildings, like, a queens nest here, a ultralisk cavern here, the one spawning pool on the left and so on
maybe you could make some creep (not covering all) on the cliffs above gasnats?
cliffsunks or anything would give another possibilities of strategies (lol, maybe even saving the own zerg eco by sunkens on top^^)
|would be another real SPECIAL things about the map. another total new tactical experiment|
|I think it's quite good as it is. Should still be a playable map and all. zerg has an advantage as they are the race than kill those blokcing buildings easiest anyway. sending some lings is much easier than sending a group of units you really need in battle.|
but I really think we have to make terran stronger...
maybe 4-5 minblocks on the gas-expo-cliffs?
it would be easiest for terran to get those minonlies by floating CC, dunno if p or z would do the effort only to get an expo there...
|I think we need more games before we can judge it.|
remember all this extra stuff will be very seldom used. Most important is actually the blocking units. At least terran can macro well here as no limited building space is hindering him, thats already good ;]
|well, but the map is very open, has a minonly-natural and protoss got another mighty (and not new-long-tech)-possiblity in lategame...|
plus, darkswarm in connection with zealot = extremly effective, and things like this
|btw, I think it's a bit annoying for protoss to have the zerg-supply-thing on top right screen, as soon as he has taken the overlord.|
can you deny this somehow, like, giving the overlord 0supply?
Of course, shall I create a unit called "flothefreak" that is an invisible probe with nukes as primary weapon that changes the broodwar resolution to 1024*768 at the same time, also?
|archon at least, please.|
probe is not cool enough for my name
adrenaline upgrade would be cool, too!
|probe>>>archon. With probe you can build big base, archon can only destroy :]|
|but archon has cool burnin' style! YO!|
and he's saying the invincible-cheat!!!!111111
|lol Panschk that was a weirdass map. And this site is confusing :( couldn't write the names of the players.|
|Is this is the final look? If it is...|
WOOOOOOOOW (bold and size 48)
flo the freak = flo the decoration freak! CHILLOUT!!!
And what a huge mains. Damn i gotta try this map :D
|panschk, what about adding some creep (1creep colony) in the rocky-ground-parts between the expos and mains?|
then the creep-theme would be more striking
|so basically no rocky grand anymore? cant place creep on rocky ground ofc.|
|no, not that|
like, just making a few holes, pathes, well, interruptions of the rocky ground and place 1-2 sunken colonies to the edges (near the cliffs)
so you'd have a nice mixture between rocky round and creep. even if the creep would cover some doodads :P
|"The map has been rated 14 times and got a total of 76 points"|
14x5 = 70
who keeps on voting "5" on that map all the time??
|or maybe there have been some higher votes, and that specific person rated even lower than 5.|
however you are, reveal yourself so I know whom I can tell to piss off :)
|too many doodads and stupid creep on the middle|
|very nice map. anyone can edit it ?|
|What should you edit on this map? Oo|
|I'm trying to edit this map with starforge. cant seem to be able to find the doodad selection / creation function T_T.|
Anyways, I added geysers to the nats but the rock doodad next to the minerals is in the place where the geyser needs to go. So as of now its just on top of it lol.
Also i added colonies with 20% hitpoints in the corner of the mains so zerg can do a more effective hidden tech. It could also add the element of scouting workers to try and kill it so the zerg can't use it. Also zerg can effectively use it to make spores on their cliff edge like other races.
|I used player 12 to put down my colonies don't know what you guys used for those purplish ones i can't even click on them for some reason.|
|all this stuff you want to do is not possible. You can not set the HP for sprites. See article section.|
I did not like the gameplay of this version ingame really, I think about adding gas to the natural and making both main and natural 9-mineral stones (pretty much I know) This way the other races can live longer of two bases, as getting more bases is rather hard on this map, especially for non-zerg. Also the design flo and me made is suited for big battles, so why not allow them?
|I have an edited version on my HD with those changes, plus I removed some unwalkable doodads that looked like they could cause problems, and I created a small wall next to the natural to prevent unit getting stuck in minerals when trying to move to the side (happened once ingame to me)|
Should I do this update?
|well I still dislike gasnats at that map. |
the map is kinda tight, but it's still very good for zerg cuz zerg has many surrounding options. and the 2nd gas is quite easy to defend anyway.
concerning the doodads, go ahead
|hm i have changed my mind... no problem for the naturals to have gas. but gas or not, one thing has to be done:|
the natural must be closed. it is exposed way too open, no way. this needs an edit before the release in the mappack #2.
what do you think?
making nat safer: must be done
|i will make an update this weekend|
|edited a bit and implemented some new ideas. i kept the naturals without gas, but closed them down. furthermore, i made then zerg's 3rd expo easier by placing a creep colony next to the cerebrates blocking the gasexpansions. so you can get sunkens there earlier, which should really give a boost to Z, esp. in ZvT - where the missing gas at natural hurts Z.|
i also closed the canyons on bottom and top. so you can now "cliff" the naturals. i kept rocky grounds in this pit. it is very drop oriented now i guess, dunno if this works well out in PvT. i just made is as idea because it gave s.th. special to the gameplay.
i also added some zerg buildings to the overmind in the middle in order to serve the look of a mini zergbase ;)
i'd like to show you a picture, but somehow my scmdraft doesn't show me the creep anymore, although the option is checked :/
|Thx flo for keeping this alive. Feel free to make any change you think may improve the map.|
The creep does not show for Sprite units. I put real sunken colonies at the same place where the sprites are in the editor to show the creep, but afaik I deleted them afterwards everytime. Actually they could even stay in there if they are P12 without doing any harm.
|okay, here is what i thought about:|
it is very fast executed. just to see what i intended, so creepcolonies aren't placed balanced yet etc. hatcheries at natural show how easy to defend they are
|Naturals look good. But I don't like to make the neutral expos creeped. Helps zerg too much imo.|
|well, zergs have no gas at nat, so i thought it would balance it out a bit|
Terran for example needs gas just as much, especially if he is not a strong micro player. Toss needs some gas badly too. Nostalgia is not zerg-unfriendly neither, no need to give zerg a big bonus like this.
|why is nostalgia then the 1st choice of terran players in TvZ? not sure about this MU, but i often see pro-terrans choose nostalgia.|
i agree on toss, though.
what about the rest of the changes?
|zerg have 1 gas longer on nost, terra only need more minerals, so advantage T on nost.|
|we need this for the mappack|
"what about the rest of the changes?"
|Well my brother just told me himself as well as other players like mondragon for example consider nostalgia balanced in tvz. So please remove those sunkens at neutral expos.|
The rest of the changes is fine, finalize it!
modified by panschk[FP]
|your wish is my command, of course. i will update it today|
|uploaded the new version. I took out the 12h/6h cliffs, because i thought a triple cliff would destroy PvT on horizontal pos.|
I also opened up the map slightly. may have to be even more open.
|well, maybe you should get rid of some trees and rocks here and there. a tree in the middle of the path can be very gay.|
|panschk, you were right. what is the point of adding neutral units fpr PvZ when there is no gas at the natural?|
so i added a geyser, and even integrated it as possibility of harassing, like a 4zeal-drop to kick z's gas or something.
i think we can call it final and ready for the mappack now. i'll need the picture with BWMN-logo to finish the pack. can someone do this?
|the spots that supposedly kick the gas nat, should have a ramp going into the main, like a no turret drop spot. |
|nah that'd be gay to balance positionally...though, it would enable P to expand without shuttle in PvT|
hmhm, other opinions on that topic? esp panschk
|nice. I like dat.|
Yeah, please finish that pack;) I can't help for the pic though.
|i like inepts idea btw. i will add those|
|final update i guess.|
i added the proposed ramps, so you don't need drop before expanding against terran. the map is already tight enough. i had to remove the exposed gas due to pathing, though.
for enabling a non-T to take 12h/6h expansions against terran, i once again used a seperated expansion. your CC/nex/hatch and the gas (slight r-point-style) can't be shot from outside with tanks while you can still mine one side of the minerals if you are located next to a terran.
gases in centerexpo are both 1000 now.
made a few changes here and there, too.
i hope it works out with this massive amount of gas.
it should be way more playerfriendly now, for sure. and the backdoor-dropzone still favours rare strategies like slow lurkdrop etc. i really like the outcome, this is a map that has evolved so great, that's awesome.
still need a bwmn-logo-picture
modified by flothefreak
i had no fucking gas at my natural when i just played the map (top left)
plus it said "awoken demons" in the triggers o_O
|this actually could hurt zerg, those buildings slow down expos that zerg needs more than other races|
|king of 8 plr maps|
|lol how the hell did that happen, Oh ok the naturals was updated, I still have the old version theres not gas at all naturals|
modified by king of 8 plr maps
|uh? no gas? awoken demons? wtf?|
the gas WAS missing/deleted/whatever. trigger is okay in the version on my PC
modified by flothefreak
|hmm you are right about ad. lol I could have sweared I read "awoken demons" in game. I read too slowly^^ |
edit: sweared is wrong I suppose?! Is sworn right or what should I say?-_-
modified by panschk[FP]
|say "i was sure" :D|
|TvT rep uploaded.. more reps will be uploaded later :)|