|I accidentally had some unexpected time so I went for executing a drawing of mine.|
as ya can probably see (hope it's not too bright, cannot judge this due to my _dark_ monitor), it's a 2-player-ashmap. i tried to melt some little originalities together to make the map play dynamic and smooth. in the beginning, those minblocks@ choke (16 each) weren't there, but i somehow had to stretch the entrance for larger unit movements so i enlargened the choke with those. plus, can be a nice scouting chance against walling terrans :P
pathing with cerebrats is ok, as you can see. they lay far away from standard route
thoughts about balancing and maybe expansion layout are welcome =)
|i like everything except the cerebrate route, what is the point of it?|
you made the ash terrain look real cool whatever you did to it :o
|the cerebrate route is just a strategical element. esp. for early game, there can be much stuff be done :D|
but i used cerebrate with 1,5k HP so it's a bit more balanced. dunno about ZvT, the natural is very safe, but the 2nd route is maybe really strong for terran
me=protoss, so statements of zerg's would be cool.
|STIMEY D OKGM FISH|
|quality map, deserves attention/development ++|
|then just drop a comment what to develop. thx so far|
|Nice job, flo. I like the nomber of the expansions, and their places on the map. I usually don't like 2 player maps that are so straight, but this one i actually like it a lot. It's open enought for great fights where only your micro will help to survive. The expands are all near the battle zone. I think this map could give some really gosu games.|
Not something new and original, but gosu :)
|STIMEY D OKGM FISH|
|it just needs to be played. by good players who can tell u how the map is. maybe u should have a minimum pgtour rank or something for official tester squad. that would be p1mp.|
|inept made a good point. Right now the secound route really is pretty pointless. some expansion back there might help.|
I do dislike the minerals at choke, you probably knew I would, let me remind you though :)
Great shapes and style on this one, might also play really good.
|i am not happy with those minblocks as well. but moving larger armies in an out of the base would be annyoing without them. now you can remove them in mid/lategame|
i will see what to do with the cerebrate route; maybe i gonna shorten it
|why does your ash terrain look so cool!!|
dam u flo ><
|I will playtest it if anyone wants a game on it|
|Why don't you try to switch min block with doodads?|
|beacause doodads can not be mined away :X|
|Yes i know, but i didn't realise that you want to be mined away for more open entry, even if there is a second entry T_T|
|the problem is the following:|
the choke is a choke, by its literal meaning. so, if you want to move larger units in or out of your base, it would suck if the choke would be only pylon-wide^^
|which is one reason i hate ramps, but i guess ai on it isnt too bad, thats why i like maps you can build out of your main|
|Lol... In longer games, where you make big armyes, do you wait in your base safe until you reach 200 limit and then level, or all your amry is around the map, and when you have new trained army you move the army fast to the battle field or somewhere to protect your expand. And if the game reach that point that you will have to enter his base with large army don't you think that on a 2 player map this will be the end, and at this moment he will write GG or something?|
|scenario: you got about 8-12 dragoons, and there is a vutl- or tankdrop in your main, while your army is at the minonly, for example. I'd be glad when the goons _do not_ get stuck in any chokepoint but move faster|
|Ok, delete all old maps that are one barrack wall only...|
|and delete your sense of when-to-use-irony with them. stfu and stuff, keke?|
you should see why an additional _small_ choke is uncomfortable on this particular map. if not, well, I think you can get it while looking on the image quite easily.
|STIMEY D OKGM FISH|
|where do you guys play?|
too similar on Chaotic Piligrim imho
lol best post ever
I'd just like to know what those funny creatures are: smurfs of mosq, or paid dumbasses
at least, this one and mosq just posted on the _very same time_, like, both in the length of 1 minute^^
too similar on chaotic pilgrim
oh man how great is this
it's a +1 nostalgia and +1 RoV and +1 direstraits clone btw
|yeah, it's clone of my Chaotic Piligrim :D|
|omg i like GMCS !|
|what is caotic pilgrim? :s|
flo: "keke" means "hehe" not "ok ok" :P its said that koreans write "keke" instead of "hehe" because the H on their keybarods are in such an awkward place, that the K is easier to use :s
|i try hard, but there is no chaotic pilgrim style. you have _2_"gates". and yeah, I USED LOWGROUND. i am so sorry. i will never use lowground again, because i know you invented it (...)|
and a cliff is very imba, yeah (...)
you have no chance, surrender and shut up.
|Nice map. The second path is kinda pointless as already pointed out, also i like and dislike the positions of the gas expansions in the center. they look great there, but that are to many close expansions for my taste. |
The voerall shape and detail is awsome. Really nice map.
+1 chaotic pilgrim clone btw
|for me, KEKE is a longer version of "kk" 8[|
dumb koreans...do _I_ write "mop" instead of "map" cuz the o is closer? 8[
|hm, I could think of many examples where the backdoor could be used. protoss in early game could pressure zerg to force Z making sunkens at the natural. then again, protoss could go for that backdoor-route|
just example ofc, and as you think it's not enough, I'll show you soon s.th. I got on my mind or the backdoor
that was on my mind:
tell me what you think. the "old" minerals in the wall still have value 16; but those 4 new ones just have 8: so you can gain access to the backdoor more easily and faster, and if you see that you can't break through the actual choke, you can try the backdoor if you have one single worker with you. plus, it makes game around the natural more aggressiv, you can now try to sneak around the enemy's natural to enter his main (or natural from behind), or you can take this route to escape a bit faster. mining away is no problem =)
tell me what you think of this idea
modified by flothefreak
|ah, and didn't test for ling safeness or stuff on that idea in the post above|
|still waiting for some input about the idea from the experienced ones of the site =)|
|Personaly i don't like mineral blocks at all. They always somehow don't fit in the map as a normal element. If you could do this with natural buildings it would be better, imo.|
|About the new path, its a good idea i guess. Gives more tactical elements to the map, and this is only pluses for me at least.|
|well, neutral buildings don't serve for the choke purpose (for having a larger entrance in mid/early game), because they would kill balance.|
for the 2nd part of the minwall (the new part), neutral buildings are just too large...
|I don't like the new min wall. It looks to awkward in my opinion, but I didn't see any problems with the old mineral wall. I do realize the new one was added to ease the access to the backdoor, but should that really be necessary? With 1.500 hp worth of block you got some time to react to a threat - early rushes from t? Throw up a sunk in your main and counter attack him. |
I have to say I really like this map. A certain degree og simplicity mixed with a nice concept. It's brilliant if only it plays well.
One worry. Can p or z match a forth-coming t mid/late game on the main route? There is a lot of doodads, and I'm not sure there's enough flanking room. Perhabs you don't need to widen the area, but just clear off some of the low ground and doodads.
Nice low ground 'cliffs' by the way. i have thought of such less potent 'cliffs' as well, didn't know they were already in Chaotic Pilgrim.
|it's not from chaotic pilgrim. mosq just did plagarism and took it from "Stone Castles"|
besides, those are very old and nothing new actually
this "new" minwall shall lay emphasis on the backdoor route because some ppl said it would be too pointless otherwise
modified by flothefreak
tell me what is best in your opinion:
the current version (a)
the idea with the mineralwall posted above (b)
or this new neutral building blockade with 2,5k HP (c)
ah, and the map is not finished yet. lings can pass the mineral line on bottom pos, will correct this. but first, help me with the decision what to take =)
i personally tend to version C. it helps the emphasis on the backdoor, but is still safe enough so it's not imbalanced (like, your expo would be very unsafe if the "new" block was too low on HP).
plus, it looks quite cool and fits to the map imo.
i like it most so far, but your opinion is important to me.
|In the c) version Protoss will get raped by 3way crackling attack beause if the buildings are gone he can hol the protoss that long in his main that he either has no expansion anymore,no money or his main is gone.You don't know how fast those little Zerglings can kill the neutral buildings and just rip the main down into pieces.|
|From those 3 versions i pick (C)|
|ok, lgi, lis and me all like C most ;D|
shall i change the neutral buildings then? seems wise to me. the "short way" would have 1,5k HP, the 2nd entrance to the main 2,5k HP...
|I wanted to play the map with hefty today, it crashed on startuop|
pls fix :)
|hum? i already played in in single player for testing, had no problems|
|updated version. C = A now :P|
panschk, I apologize for your error. I now found out that the second player wasn't set user select, but "neutral". I just misclicked back then- that's why it didn't occur against a cpu.
sorry for that...
everything is lingsafe (min- and building-blocks), dropspots are denied. moved it to user final and will add an obs version soon, if you don't have any further proposals
|I'm not sure on this one, but the doodad count in the dropholes behind the naturals looks to high. Seems like unit's could have a hard time moving there. and after it isn't a cliff in first place, at least movement should be good. |
I may be wrong on that, but on the pic, if feels like "just to much".
Check it out :)
|ok, i gonna test that.|
I also may look for the general doodad count in some of my other maps^^
|STIMEY D OKGM FISH|
|it looks a little hard on zerg, maybe u should make the min onlies have gas, too. otherwise not enough gas to win once you have them contained.|
|removed some doodads in the natural pit|
added obs vers
please have another look and tell me if you still see flaws
stimey: the additional zerebrate route is quite strong for zerglings, so i think it's be okay...
z can harass very effectively
if one doesn't think so, plz let me know
|i just uploaded 3 games (pvt), was quite fun to watch ;)|
those games made me aware that the top wallin is not yet working properly. plus, i may increase the mineral-count of the blockers to 24...protoss can harass very well because of this, because the terrans seem to build their 1st depot not at those mins at all
have a look on those games!
|chokeminerals now have 24 value to prevent too cheesey pressure on terran in pvt (scoutprobe can mine 1x before a marine pops out, and after that, a second probe guarded by the first rushgoon could mine a hole in the wall if lucky. was quite annyoing to have the toss trying this all the time :o)|
wall-in on top pos works now. really weird. in editor, i couldn't even put a zergling and it looked 100%safe, but ingame, even tanks could pass :p
|obs version is also corrected, ofcourse|
i don't like it you need 3 zealots to close the entrance and 4 to really hold off zerglings :/
any idea how i can make it some smaller without dis-enabling wallin?
modified by flothefreak
|finally found a solution that provided both advantages. 1-rax-wall and 2-zeal-block possible on bothz pos now :)|
i'm glad that work paid off now, took some time 'n' testing to get those chokes doing what i want :P
|should I enlarge the island a bit? like, towards north and south? i am playing with that thought...|
they'd lose their round shape then, but well, they're quite small now
|Well, the larger the islands are, the easier they are to defend. I think that islands should be at least somewhat harrasable. I think you should keep them the size they are (they're not that small)|
|Hmm... actually, the larger something is, the harder it is to defend. Don't you think so?|
But, islands are good as they are.
|Lis, when defending the island against carriers, wraiths, mutas, a bigger island is easier to defend, as you can build more defense there. Very small islands can only be protected with an air force of yourself.|
|yeah, but small island are easy to take for terran for example...when seeing the drop of scvs on one island, protoss would have about 20sec to get his shuttle there^^|
|I don;t like this map its bad because of the neutrel buildings. Neutrel building maps cause melee players a ton of problems and this map just adds to it also this map is big and wide and is more of a zerg map and really a toss hating map.|
|play the map and you'll see that there are no pathing troubles|
|JF-Lightning, I don't know where you came from, but kindly go the f*** away... Ever since you came to this site (about two days ago) you've done nothing but bash everyone's maps. It's obvious that you know very little about starcraft concerning balance and map making in general, you are certainely not qualified to give any amount of "advice".|
|so all of a sudden arden is teh gosu?|
|well, I'd be glad if those who critize this map finally decide if it is a zerg map or a terran map.|
|lol just stop classifying maps as "zerg map" "terran map" any race can succeed to some degree.|
|i don't do that^^|
it's just funny that one half says "T map, no chance" while other say "z will rape all"^^
|yea but it really depends on the choices you make|
|how long have i been saying that?!?!?|
|how is that possible?|
|recent gg.net forum topic:|
"Made me sick: AwokenDemons, the guy was on drugs when he made it."
holy shit flo go defend ur map! i disagree wit this guy but it is quite funny.
|thanks dude, but actually: who cares?|
i don't consider his opinion being worth anything. and i am quite sure he has a) no idea or/and b) won't change his mind.
|I saw that too and was tempted to post about it, but that guy's just a dick... Ignore him.|
|major update. this map will probably be the next testing object after Mirage II.|
-removed gasexpo cliffs
-enlarged the island and connected them to the mainbase. the tiny island were too easy to secure, now this should encourage attacking the islands.
-reshaped and repositioned 2nd expo (minonly) because it was ridiculos to grab as 2nd expandsion.
-changed the ramp of the upper lowcliff, also added unbuildable terrain; however there is still room for some hidden tech or similar.
-the two large free areas are now divided in paths leading to the gasexpo and the backdoors.
-the natural backdoor is now directed to between the gas and the minerals
-natural is redone completely, regarding safeness, layout and comfortability. also added a cannon/turret/sunkspot in the mineralline.
-changed deco and mineral formations heavily
i think the map got more playable and more understandable now.
modified by flothefreak
|Was the middle always that large? :( Looks hard for terran; p>t for large open and unbuildable. Looks z>p for such long distances on top of the openness.|
|yeah it actually was. i already thought about adding some terrain obstacles in it. but for now, terran can use a small timeframe of weakness to fastpush because distances are not this long, once you have taken the mineral only.|
but i will see to a solution.
|having finally played this map a few times in the role of T versus P i realized it was too hard to grab the minonly. even without pressure one felt vulnerable. so i changed the center slightly to what i think is a appropriate relation of wideness and chokes.|
|uploaded a few reps; also closed down the terrain some more (for t push) and reshaped&repositioned main minerals and gas to gain more building space.|
|final touches done:|
remaining terrain work
reshaped minerals and starting locations to be more equal
i also uploaded the last replay to match the 3-games-of-each-matchup-condition. it's a long ZvZ with lings, hyds, muta, lurk and ultra - i didnt get to use defilers unfortunately :>