|Before we start suggesting ideas, any comments on the project? Should i just scrap it right now or does anyone else believe this could be a good thing?|
Of course we'll do our best in building up the expectations as we go too.
|I don't know if this can work. The map would have to be very balanced + innovative. That's where the problem starts, because everyone has different opinions on how a map has to be to be balanced. Look flothefreak vs panschk, we never agreed on TvP balance on any map...|
I would do some playtesting to help, the design part should be Starparty/travin/trcc, they can do much better than me;)
|But that would still mean that everyone had a part in the project. The important thing is that everyone feels involved so that everyone cares that it gets spread. We should also playtest this many many games so we can get a decent idea of balance|
|im willing to give this a shot|
|I agree :>|
well, panschk, I am able to be cooperative, even in balancing issues :]
I think the start should be to collect ideas about the general structure (how many players, tileset(though I choose tileset after having drawn my map finished), base thoughts [aka spirit of the map], etc).
I'd go for a 2-playermap btw, for it provides more space for innovative ideads as 4-player-ones do, because they need more space.
And as it is a project with hopefully loads of ideas, I'd say much free space, as 2-pl-maps would offer, is the best thing
|flothefreak, I disagree^^|
4player maps will get played more, and are more interesting, as you need to pay attention to 2on2-balance too.
|This is a great idea. I'm down for it. I agree with both previous posts. 2 player maps are easier to balance and design etc., while 4 player maps are funner and more appealing to play on. |
First I think we should look at all the pros maps and their basic concepts and make a list of what is good, what works well, what people like etc. (maybe some polls for this at TL.net or GG.net). We should also try and innovate. There is only so much the editor can/can't do, so it will be a challenge.
When did you plan on having this map completed?
|Panschk, are ou doing this on purpose? :P|
|Let's discuss. It is a good idea if it possible to acheive :)|
|Interesting idea, but the more they are the harder it gets to balance. I somehow doubt that 10 people can create a map together.|
But i'm open for it. i definetely like the idea.
|Well the best way for a group of people to create a map is too agree on a certain concept and then all try to create that concept. Then all show our versions and vote who's is the best. Then everyone gets that version and works on the next step. Rinse, Repeat.|
|good point. that sounds good. haven`t thought of that.|
|Very nice idea, gonna participate in this co-operation. |
Imo at first, we must create a terrain, which everybody of us will consider the best.
|I felt free to create a bannre for this project, showing different maps that fit together (cliffs and stuff) isn't THAT outrageous, but quite good i hope - newspost updated ;)|
|About the banner:|
There are 5 maps in the background, from different mapmakers, on on different tileset, but they are "connected" as they were one big map.
I also thought about why i've chosen this maps as backgrounds, as they are all from known mapmnakers here.
If you want to guess, then stop reading now, but i will write them backwards just for the fun. ^^ For all others, a short explanation:
First map is from nivart, after he is here for a long time now and proved that he can craete his own maps, without copying from Xuul :P - the "own ideas part"
Next map is from ytraprats, the actual motw - the "date".
Third is also from ytraprats, the first motw here - the "beginning"
Fourth is from cirotsil, the guy who designed this cool banner - the "design" part
Fifth is from naerypme & ytraprats, it represents this page with twilight as well as it's a work from two mapmakers - the "partnership"
Also our logo, the <> is seen, without the arrow this time, after not only one arrow is going to create this map, they are several across the same map somehow.
Ok, stop guessing ^^ That's for that, just wanted to let you know ;)
|- the "date" stands for "up to date"|
- the "beginning" stands for our competions here, that allowed us to be as creative as we are ^^
|what kind of map do we want to create? |
how many players?
what are the startpositions going to look like?
how should we use ramps?
what tileset would be the best?
some of these questions should be ansered. Mabye starparty gives the first criterias we can relate to?
|I like to give a hand by offering the, always necessary, criticism and ideas. That is, I don't expect to be doing the actual editing, but that'll show anyway.|
First of all - when we aim to make a Mutual Dream Map (MDM?), what kind of map do we expect to make? It is very possible that a map which pleases everyone is going to be very standard as well, and thus not innovative whatsoever. I'd like to see some fresh ideas for a map like this because we want to promote it as something special - instead of getting out on tl.net and gg.net to say: hey guys - bwm.net made a lt-clone!
Therefore, I would recommend a 2player map for the simple recent that it allows for more unique concepts. Agreed, 4player maps are often very fun and also the most popular maps, but when you make the standard "8-8-6" (right, SP? ;]) to please the crowd, you simultaneously consume the greater part of the 4player map just for standard base design.
Lastly, a word on the tileset. Although I like that different tilesets are used, I think that we should pick a tileset, which is easy and familiar to work with, since some tilesets might not be able to offer the oppotunities for certain design ideas that come along the way. For instance we would limit ourselves greatly with ash world or badlands terrain. Go desert/jungle unless people can agree on a design scheme that works with other terrains early in the process.
|this could be a big step for us - with all our work put together, we could get a map into the proleagues|
|they desert part is fron Dirz right!?!?!?|
i knew it was from one of my maps or atleast i suspeceted it
|I Think the best idea we could get used to is|
2 type of mains like Travin already made on one of his map. BUT we could give different opportunities and with some great work come to balance both type of mains. I think it would be a great idea for the variety of strategies
|I say the map should be Space or Badlands(asphalt+compound). The reasoning why is because with those 'man made' tilesets the terrain doesn't have to look so natural, so we can do pretty much any design we wanted. Plus there is that extra tile like on Detonation X note where u can build on the compound roof.|
I really dislike 2 player maps except for Bifrost. If we want this map to be a winner we've got to have 4 SL's. The map will definately get more play if it can be played as 1v1, 2v2, or ffa instead of just 1v1.
|I was thinking we should try to draw something that has to do with space or pyramids. Like quasars or galaxy swirls. Something that just looks cool as soon as you see it.|
|I think The map should be called "Mutal Dream" as well. Unless of course there is a very good reason otherwise after its completed.|
|I'd also say we go for space, desert or jungle. Space tileset seems to be the best imo, after Starcraft originally was intended to be a "space"game, so you have the most viriety in bridges and ramps, as well as you can do natural and manmade shapes. |
To SpoRs drawing: I miss min-onlys, and fighting place in the middle, looks like a terran dominated map somehow. anyway, i like the idea of two "deviding islands", you could also put expansions up there.
A short note to jungle terrain, raised jungle and temple walls are placeable nxt to each other without a space between them, what makes up for interesting detail aspect, after you can look onto the raised jungle from low ground. Also there is a ramp in the indexed tileset to the raised jungle, that could be used.
|Ah and Travin, yes, it's dirtz ^^|
|hehe nice feedback :)|
|Space or Jungle.|
Jungle is the most popular tileset according to a GG.net poll a while ago.
|Desert is great too but ramps are harder to place|
Twilight is good too imo
But jungle is by far the easiest titleset to work with or space ( tiny bridges are cool :D )
|it really depends on what type of map we're going to make. if we want an awesome ninja lightning bolt like spor's, then we use space. If we want something natural then we use twilight or jungle. I don't think we should bother with the others as they're pretty unpopular.|
I don't like travin's idea for imbalances on the mains. I like symmetry and I think most players do too.
I think the idea of adding something original to our map by using the "secret" raised jungle ramps is neat, but it's not something like that will get our map played.
alright, so, we need some basic guidelines of what we're going to do if we want to get this thing started.
-4 players (I think most agree on this)
-regular main/nat setup?
-position of the mains? corners, sides, middle of the map? o_O
etc etc. just keep the discussion going, guys
|When you mentionned the raised jungle ramps, where do you find em? In starforge ?|
|they're apparently in the game's memory somewhere. I remember seeing them used once, but I don't know how to access them.|
|They're made by placing the custom Raised Jungle Terrain with a terrain placer.|
|they are easy to find in scmdraft, tileset indexed.|
|Ok. Its a 4 player jungle map.. |
its a start :)
|So, lets start posting pictures now then.|
No big images, just small paint scetches or something. Make sure to explain them good so everyone understands them.
|i tried to post picture but couldnt, can someone explain to me how i do it|
|upload it at imageshack, and then use the first link i think, the one with thumbnail, looks like <_img_src="URL"> (without the ___)|
|Hmm.. somehow i think we should make clear what we think units/players behave in scbw before making a concept.|
well, can't exactly describe what i mean.
just like, i think it's important to have cliffs or water to help airunits move over the map and give them harrassing possibilities, while the startbases then should support that somehow, it shouldn't be overdone, so there is no way of having a base where you can fly around 360° to attack, so startpositions should be near the center mapedges, to support drop and muta harrassment to a point of cool gaming, not imbalance.
gosh my english suxx today, but i think it's a good example.
to starparty - as you started, we should write every step into the top topic here, as well as delete old stuff, to be sure to give only the information that is needed.
also state the infos we need, like 4 players, jungle map, no difference in startpositions, classic expansion amount, possibly 2 islands or something that works similar somehow. good use of all terrain.
sure, we know what we want to have, but it's good to see it written down sometimes, just to remember what we'Re up to, and to inform other users about thsi project and what it's good for.
maybe even write something like "a diary" with the actual date and time so that we see how much time each step took, to gain experience for a future project.
|are we going to use 2-way or 4-way symmetry?|
i'd say 2 way, after it supports more variety and is still balanced.
|for such an ambitious project you should try to make a map that isnt symmetrical but still positionally balanced|
|What do you mean 2 way or 4 way symmetry? |
|well, that'S how i understood it :/ after thinking about it, i might be wrong ^^|
|red = base, black thing = ramp (taken as example)|
|Arena is 2way|
gaema is 4 way
|and it doesnt matter to me|
|Well use 4 way then. 2 way is too boring and the majority of maps made are using 2 way.|
|majority of maps are made using 4 way if u ask me :P|
gaema, nostalgia, luna, r point, "lt"(to some extent) requiem etc
|Yeah my paint skills suck. Those cliffs are supposed to be smooth curves. |
Think swatstika. I even have an iron cross in there :X
|Frickin hell, I thought it would post a thumbnail. Oh well, my bad.|
|You could also decide the time when the gas is accessable, when you smaller the amount of a mneral next to it. like 9 patches, 7 with 1500, 2 with 750.|
|Yeah, that's so interesting, you could add more tactical value to mineral-onlies, because after you mined them, they are an extra gas. Incredible, your idea is just incredible. Very very good job. I love it! <3|
|I'm so excited by Kamis idea ^^ Ok|
Now we can create a basic 886 layout, but with an extra importance to the mineral-onlys/expansions.
As i haven't seen a gasnode at this position EVER, i claim this our idea towards the Mutual Dream...
|you could also make ruins instead of temple walls, but they were buildable. or, you could make a ramp to this cliff in the mapcenter. just one ramp. so this cliff would be a smaller battlefield.|
AAAh i got thousand of ideas atm ^^... lets start creating maps and upload them somewhere and AAAAH ... ^^ i start mapmakling now... just for myself ^^
|The gas thing is a old idea. |
For anyone who remember the TL custommap competition last year, the map in group C that stole the 1st place from my (4)Vega had that idea. It is called (4)Vanguard and you should search for it at TL.net to see what i mean.
|...sorry for being pesimistic :P|
|^^ anyway, i still think it's a good idea, even when it's old. btw, i'm on a map based on my two pictures, looks good so far, feels awesome too, let's what it will look like in the end.|
|I think listoric turned crazy :P lol It was a good idea but if you say that it was already used then =(|
|Ok, seen it. Vanguard is just plain ugly, and you say it won? Awesome...|
anyway, my map already looks trice as good and it's only finished to 1/5 ^^ MUAHAHA ^^
|886 is already used too, so lets kick that idea too...|
tronicc!!! even if it's used, if we use it waaay better (somehow) than it's another cool little feature/detail taht makes our map better, don't you think?
|SpoR, nice drawing, but where the hell is everything? ^^ guess the big ones are the ones with the mains on it, the smaller ones are... well.. dunno ^^ and the middle is unbiuldable?!|
|The center should be a big <> like the bwm logo|
|No dude, thats just the center design I left the base layout up to you guys.|
|It doesnt matter what terrain goes where as long as the deign still shows through.|
PS when i have a firefox tab open and a page on here i can never see the bottom of the arrow thing on windows. So I cant click the 'post comment' button without closing the other tabs. T_T
|Lis version has potential, but the broken cliffs look confusing.. Will need quite some altering (no offence) :P|
|can everyone just post ONE suggestion each for a design, and then we vote wich one is the best and we do combined work on that one.|
Post your maps in the field above just as a normal competition.
OBSERVE - _ONE_ map each. dont post halfdones, cause you only got 1 shot :P
|with halfdones i mean bad concepts, not totally finnished maps :P|
|k then i finish this one and add it to the pool. i have like 6 slightly different versions of this map in my head. O_o|
|actually lis, your first version (the paint-mirrored) looks great. If this concept is not taken for MD-project, I beg you, make this map on your own as normal map :)|
sry for not reading this thread for a long time^^
gonna occupy myself with it.
|I don't really like two-way maps where there are close positions and far ones (take a look at incubus). I think that all positions should play relatively the same vs one another. my opinion though|
|I like the positions to make a difference. It adds some longivity to the map that different starting positions leads to different games. It's true for the most played map of them all- what do they call it... arr, you know which one I'm thinking of.|
|I agree with hefty, Look at maps liek LT where there is close positions, medium distance, and long distance with close air range. Something like that needs to be in this map. Every position being the same distance makes the game play too mechanical with no room for variation in build orders and strats.|
|Listoric, Can yo send me that Font in that picture? It looks really cool. Is that Starcraft font? Spore3006@hotmail.com|
|So SP we are supposed to make 4 start location jungle skeletons with no resources and just basic doodads like ramps?|
resources isnt a problem though, they are asily removable and you need to show where you want the expos.
|Well, but the resource placement is a vital part of the map imo. Just look at my picture, depending on where you put the resources, other drop posibilities are given.|
In my picture i.e. you can drop on top left corner, at the min-only-island to kick the expansion, on the right side, you have a standard cliff for that purpose.
btw, shall i upload it in a finished version somehow SP? I`d like to finish it somehow. STill don't know which elements would be best. Actually it`s quite a good picture to show noobs what chances they have with changing little details...
|the crucial expansions can be placed. Like on my submission, the expoes are balanced positionally, and therefre there is a point in placing them.|
The main minerals are less important, and thus those are not placed
|I don't get the whole idea. It is a sort of competition or a mix of different mappers?|
I mean if it is to post a map and then decide what map is the best one and all the other mappers get credit of your work, it's very bad. But if it is a common work like exemple Götteranburn*** sorry for spelling*** which is a final version that 2 mappers made while working together, i like more this idea. But since we are 529384712 mappers on the site, i don't think this idea is viable :/.
If I don't undrstand it well please explain me :o
|it is a co-operation. We only do it like this because it is the easiest way to do it on bwm.net.|
we dont post maps to compete, but to suggest a base. we might even combine several bases to make it fit into all our demands. The "rules" are mostly to make it all comprehendable and to avoid things growing out of proportion..
Btw, this map is supposed to reach out to as many pppl as possible, and therefore we should ofcourse be original ,but still very _crowdpleasing_ too :P
|i think the gas behing mineralsthing is kinda unmotivated|
|i did exactly that map but with templewall instead of highground :P|
|and it was mirrored. But i had problems fitting it all in.. and this map too seems to be needing bigger mains|
|Narrows paths is a no no.|
|those temple ramps look awful... use high ground instead|
I think that design is decent but it's pretty tight and I don't like how all the expos are up against the sides of the map
|Wow that map looks really nice. How long did that take you? |
|Yeah looks good, but the center looks O_o weird ^^ :P ( i know that this does not matter anyway )|
The map itself lookgs good. It's a bit tight though. And you don't have any island expansion. You could delete the 3rd ramp, but then you'd have 4 islands and maybe 4 min-onlys in the center, to tight again.
|well i kinda trashed that project. it currently goes by the projectname "New Sc maps/16".|
the original design of the center was a rose. I quit this map because i feel like i was ripping off Citadel of Adun.
|added my MD-idea to the contest-maps-list. see above :)|
|Tomorrow I will post here my MD.|
|Flo that map looks nice. Where will the mains be though?|
|so, which base is the betetr one?|
|The parts/areas made by the raised jungle and the cliff formations are the main bases. where to put the HQs exactly depends on the rest of the map, and the balancing.|
|clarification: Which map is the better one? Shall we chose one and build on, or should we combine several?|
|i am for py proposal, who'd think that :D|
plz decide fast if it's taken, because if not, I'll finish this map with my own ideas :)
|Well, i think my concept is very good too... :/ well. if we don't take mine, i make it into a map for sure, don't know what details exactly should fit into it. |
Maybe, you should just create a terrain by your own SP, and we all modify it. As it is now, we don't seem to get together.
|I just uploaded my idea.|
|I was afraid of that. I just felt it was unfair if I or anyone else would have more participation than anywone else. How interested would you be in doing PR for a map you barrely helped in doing? |
I dont wanna give up on this just yet, but does anyone have a good spontainious sollution to this?
|the problem is that one idea, of one author, fixes large parts of the map. like, my mainbase concept let's only the center untouched, but it's influencing and limiting everything that can be put into it-|
i am sorry, but this doesn't work as it is expected :[
|OK i have a new idea. What idf we compile a bwm.net mappack? with maps which is a bit favored towards all races, a map pack which can be used, like the WCG maps for inctance? We pair up and make maps 2 and 2 and then we compile our maps into a little bwm.net mappack which we advertise togheter? we can use the bases we already created to continue on?|
|like, mutual dream concept executed/referring to a map_pack_, not only one map?|
well, it won't be really mutual then, and we actually could take maps we created recently. Not to mention that the maps will definetly differ in quality (not saying mine would be better, this is just a fact that will appear)
|Chose one concept to make your mutual dream map. Let's say we take starparty's and he does most of the design. Now if 2/3 say : "the natural should have no gas", then the natural will have no gas, no matter what SP wants-_-; That would be democracy.|
You should all complete your maps as "regular" maps though, I don't want any Mutual-Dream fossiles in the DB anyway-_-
|its just to rename the filename as we go.|
So who wanna pair with who?
|There should be various types of maps. Say we make 4 maps. Then 1 team makes central powermap, 1 team makes island map and so on|
|I like the idea of pairs doing a map together, that's the easiest way atm.|
All Mutual Dream Mappers who have released a map on BWMN should make it Final, all concepts are good enough to stay here as final versions, so keep it coming!"
|Ok, i and flothefreak are teaming up. Let's see what happens ;)|
|Who wants to be with this sexy beast? RoseofDream wanted to be my partner, but he's too newb for me :p|
And listoric, clarify that bold statement, i'm a wee bit confused.
|Just wanted to say that, everyone who has a Mutual Dream map released on BWMN - decafs mutual dream i.e. - should fnish their maps with the concept they have in mind. not jsut the rough one, finish it to a fully playable map. Maybe find a partner with whom you finish your version of the Mutual dream. That's what i wanted to say. Not that all these scetches fly around unfinished on this page ;)|
|quite embarrasing that ypu havent removed your own -.-|
|How do i delete my map, or do i need gosu admin powers for that?|