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PvZ Fix Idea page: 1 2 3 4
boongee	Inept my good sir Let's say LT is the "normal map." Zerg tends to fast expand. There's a geyser at the natural expansion. Therefore, Zerg gets 2 geysers. Protoss only gets one. However, on a map with 2 in the main and none at the natural, Zerg gets 2 geysers, and Protoss gets 2 geysers. That's double the high templar action before Protoss even has to expand. It's what I tried to implement in Azure Pasture but no one seemed to care.
2006, 09, 09 06:23
lnept	if zerg expos they'll have 3 gas now, which is enough to go ultra/ling without having to leave base
2006, 09, 09 06:25
Cosmi	Min-only nat, right? But the thing is, that zerg fast expands for gas, they never harvest minerals with maximum possible drones.
2006, 09, 09 11:02
boongee	there's no gas at the natural. I don't see why it's a problem if Zerg isn't forced to fast expand. On a dual gas main map, Zerg can play one-base for a while.
2006, 09, 09 17:32
lnept	yea so lets add 5 more minerals in the main and we might as well be playing BGH modified by lnept
2006, 09, 09 17:33
boongee	not rly I'd say 9 minerals is ideal for this type of map
2006, 09, 09 17:49
spinesheath	Well, we all know that fastest possible is the best map for protoss...
2006, 09, 09 20:00
Antares	but even better for zerg :)
2006, 09, 09 20:02
boongee	lol stfu ~_~ anyway, that's just because toss can build so much faster and easier than the other races
2006, 09, 09 20:03
Nightmarjoo	zvp does not need to be balanced by the map makers, although map makers need to keep the balance in mind. Doing little things, not major things can help prevent huge imbalances. P needs to not play like a retard. Since 99% of z early expos, why doesn't p do it too. Z will counter that with another expo most likely, but taking 2 expos early on delays the massing period, which allows p to quickly take out the third base (they really should expect it) thus giving them the immediate advantage. Once they hold map control they can try a contain and take the map the way z does. Most p I know who I can beat every time lose because they don't expo when they have the chance. Lurker contain is useless if p makes a shuttle or two and uses them to drop on z who has little defense away from the lurk contain, or uses the shuttles to flank the lurk contain. Yeah shuttles are expensive, but you will already have the robot thing since you're getting obs. Double gas in main allows z to not worry about defending and making drones for a nat, that is not helping p. gas main and gas nat is fine, p just needs to use their nat... Map makers can do things like make fewer expos across the whole map, add mineral blocks to main and nat and stuff, make large mains which z can't really use... simple shit like that. The gameplay is up to the players. If map makers wanted to make the game easy for players then we'd all be playing fastest. Balance doesn't mean free gas in main...
2006, 09, 09 21:51
lnept	hm that was a pretty shortsighted post in terms of gameplay. Fast expo protoss is the easiest countered strat in ZvP if you didnt know. remember the longer a ZvP plays out the better chance zerg has of getting ling/ultra which is 2x as cost efficient as anything protoss has. my goal always in ZvP is to kill the zerg before they can get both ultralisk upgrades
2006, 09, 09 21:58
spinesheath	A toss that goes for FE and doesn't add dt/sair or even reav/sair is just ASKING for early ultraling ownage. And it's not that hard to hold a second expansion. You can get up 3 sunks and a decent amount of zerglings before toss gets speed + attacks after FE, and you can easily scout a slow zeal attack and pump some more lings out of your by then at least 4 hatches. But you ARE right with the shuttle. Toss can hurt with early zeal drops, storm or reav drop your eco away, and if z was lazy with detection a dt drop can cause great havoc. Storm drops to 2 expansions are not that hard to pull off and if timed correctly, you can kill almost everything. But oh well, this is not meant to be a strategy discussion thread :p
2006, 09, 09 22:38
Nightmarjoo	"PvZ Fix Idea" I understand that the original purpose was for map making suggestions not strategy, but the thread title does not have map making or something like it in its name, so there is nothing wrong with discussing strategy ;) also, you cannot make maps or change things in maps without considering strategy, and I already gave my suggestions for changing how maps are made on the first page, so why not talk strategy now? maybe people need to fix their p to fix pvz not fix the maps for pvz. But again I understand that some changes can help the balancing process.
2006, 09, 09 23:04
spinesheath	I'll say it again: the pvz style will change, and there will be a time when toss is considered the strongest race. Just as there were times when zerg had this position, or terran. I can't really tell if it's z or t at the moment, but I tend to terran ;) But again, styles will change, and so will balance. Just think about how Yellow introduced "fast" hive (he was pretty late compared to today), or how the now so common gundam rush in pvt came up - you wouldn't see such one year ago. The biggest change took place in tvt imo - I still remember the times where it was turrets and tanks all over ;) Now the time has come for protoss to adapt their style, and they will do, sooner or later.
2006, 09, 10 00:16
lnept	gundam sucks, i only have to put up with it in D ranks. all terran does 1 fac fast expo.
2006, 09, 10 00:38
Nightmarjoo	what's gundam rush?
2006, 09, 10 00:45
Antares	gundam rush is the bamboo's other name, it was originally gundam who firstly suceeded in bamboo at this high level, so it was named after him :)
2006, 09, 10 01:15
NastyMarine	right now Z is strongest... look at the players (korean mainly) and look at the qualifiers for sandlot etc.. terran is following Z players closely, but with players like Savior[gm] aka IPXZerg, Z is imba to all :)
2006, 09, 10 01:51
spinesheath	We just have many zergs :) But zerg and terran still fight for the crown imo. Gundam Rush is a aggressive tvp strat. You build ~4 marines, 2 fac, one with addon, one tank then vults with mines. Go with marines, tank and some SCVs, vults follow up. Pretty devastating if protoss has too few goons because of tech/expansion. And you have tons of possibilities after that rush. The biggest danger to this is a reaver drop, though, in case the toss can hold off the attack ;) Well, I don't play p nor t on PGT, so I don't see any gundam rushes there. I only know it from pro reps (yes, pros). Recently I noticed that they even switched to a 1 fac build with ~ 6 marines and FE. I'd still consider this a Gundam Rush, but I haven't heard much about the recent strategies for some time now...
2006, 09, 10 02:53
lnept	well thats the problem noobs think: OMGZ DAT PRO JUST PWNED HIM WITH DAT BUILD!111 I BET I CAN PWN 2! but they have no idea behind the reason of the build or what your trying to accomplish with it, so its just an easy 525 mineral 100 gas kill
2006, 09, 10 05:21
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