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Forum - main
Spells on Maps Contest
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OK, so the spells on Maps contest was cancelled, how about a new one? It has been a while since that contest closed and we have had many maps with spells made that could participate.
2007, 03, 30 18:43
hmm I personally would like to wait on that until use of spells is for one more tested, and two, more concrete in maps. I think a lot of us (including me in certain cases) have just thrown in spells to be using them, or just focusing a whole map's concept on the spells (Caissa, etc). I would like to see a better balance with that, to see spells used intelligently more often. ie, we need more discussion on the use of spells, and not just in various maps' threads. I think ima try and go through (if I can find the time) all the maps' threads where spell use was discussed, and open up a feedback thread solely for spell discussion: a more organised place.
2007, 03, 30 21:12
Great idea, but don't just go around cutting and pastingthings people have said. Open up a forum and invite people to post. I have given my analysis of how dwebs affect game play on the Caissa map thread but I am willing to rewrite that in a more formal way.
2007, 03, 31 14:44
ITT The use of disruption webs and dark swarms, permamently placed in maps! gogo :)
2007, 03, 31 23:07
Sorry, I don't understand your reply, what is ITT?
2007, 04, 01 02:07
ITT = I think that

His post still makes no sense, don't worry about it ^^

btw, hi to anyone that remembers pwning me in a couple of the early tourny things ^^
2007, 04, 01 03:46
ITT = in this thread^^ sorry for jargon =/
2007, 04, 01 06:23
Wow, Nightmarjoo makes up his own acronyms -_-
2007, 04, 01 12:44
hm, imo TINTBSO (=this is nothing to be scared of)
2007, 04, 01 12:49
OK, I will put together my ideas on dwebs with examples and post them in this thread, give me some time.
2007, 04, 01 21:23
lol ITT is not at all uncommon, just from a different part of the web I guess =/
2007, 04, 02 22:01
Dwebs, how to avoid them and how to exploit them

The following represent my opinions. Suggestions and friendly criticism are welcome.

Obvious ways to deal with massed units behind dwebs are air units and spell casters like high templars, defilers and science vessels who are not affected by dwebs. Here I deal with land units, which can be either ranged units (which can attack from a distance: goons, hydras, marines etc) or melee units (which have to get close to the enemy unit to attack: zealots, lings, firebats etc).

The first problem is with ranged units. If the enemy unit comes within range of the moving attacking unit while the attacking unit is within a dweb, the attacking unit will stop and try to attack from within the dweb. Since it will be unable to do this, it will essentially freeze in position and stay in that situation indefinitely until acted upon by the player with the "move" command. The units that freeze while trying to attack within the dweb will also block those behind them from advancing.

Examples (replays from the map Avatar)

"1_hasske2.rep", ramp near terran's mineral-only nat, 9:30 min

Hydras attack a group of goliaths and tanks placed behind two dwebs. The bulk of the hydras come within range inside the top dweb and freeze while being fired upon.

"2500 fakeF Horror.rep", ramp near protoss mineral-only nat, 12:50 min

Goons attack some vultures across a set of dwebs; some come within range of the vultures inside the dwebs and freeze while being fired upon.

"0172 nD.Sem sugoku.rep", ramp near brown mineral-only nat, 16 min

Blue toss army attacks but part of the goons stop at dwebs (here a blue templar casts psionic storm from inside a dweb).

What you have to do in these situations is use the move command to move the units closer to the enemy units and away from the dwebs so they can attack from a closer range. In these examples the players eventually did this to a certain extent but then retreated anyway.

The second problem is with melee units. When the enemy unit is on the edge of a dweb and the attacking melee unit has to cross the dweb to attack. It will stop motionless next to the enemy unit (if the enemy unit is sufficiently away from the dweb it will attack it normally).

Example (replay from the map Avatar)

"L,P, Deska,Storm.rep", blue Protoss mineral-only nat, 19 min.

Two of blue's archons end up next to the lower dweb and some attacking zealots and lings just stop next to them. Others exit the dweb and go on to attack the archons, but the ones that stopped remain motionless there and eventually get attacked. Some of the attacking ranged units also freeze inside the upper dweb.

The obvious thing to do when confronted with this is to use the move command to either flank the blocking units and get out of the dweb or retreat.

Defending

If you are defending, the presence of a dweb will help you depending of the makeup of the attacking army. Placing you ranged units at a distance from a dweb will do nothing to stop melee units who will just race through them and attack you. Placing your units right next to a dweb will do nothing to stop ranged units who will attack you from the other side. Having some units at a distance from the dweb and others next to the dweb blocking passage is probably the best option but, as you all know, there are no formulas in Starcraft.

Attacking

If you are attacking an army behind a dweb in a relatively open space, the best approach is to flank, single dwebs are easier to flank than clusters of dwebs. Unfortunately, most of our experience at present (4-2-07) is with dwebs at chokes. We need more experience and maps with dwebs in open terrain. When attacking an army behind a dweb at a choke try to move your ranged units past the dweb before attacking. If the opponent has the units right next to the dweb blocking access, then attack them with ranged units first.


Building placement

Classic building placement by terran blocking a choke with one or two depots and a barrack can have the added advantage when a dweb is present that melee units will not be able to attack them except perhaps by one of the sides. See the "1_hasske2.rep" replay. In a choke that can be totally blocked by a single building such as the one found in the nat of my map "Concentric" melee units will not be able to attack the building at all if there is a dweb in the choke.

For zerg a group of spore colonies within ranged unit distance of the dweb plus a group of units (lings/hydras) right next to the dweb would seem to be a viable placement (See the "1_hasske2.rep" replay), but the blocking units must remain there if the entrance of units like vultures to you main is to be prevented! For protoss the same arrangement will do but employing photon cannons and zealots.

Be mindful of how you place buildings next to a choke with a dweb to avoid situations such as "the invincible zergling" ("PvZ valiant avatar win.rep") where zealots were blocked from attacking a zergling who proceeded to single-handedly (clawedly?) destroy a gateway!

An intriguing use of dwebs is to build a building within the dweb at your opponent's choke as it will be invulnerable from attack until ranged units arrive. This mostly applies to protoss building a pylon within the dweb at the choke of a zerg main followed by gateways or photon cannons blocking the exit. A not very good example is found in "PvZ valiant avatar win.rep". This strategy is, of course, already in use but the fact that the pylon within the dweb cannot be attacked by drones gives it a new spin. We need more examples of this strategy.
2007, 04, 03 00:56
Very good post, lancet. It seemed very informational, with a clear knowledge of dwebs and with having seen reps on maps with them.

I've decided to form an article on this, seperate from the spells in maps one, which I might rename "Placing spells in maps; the article would be formed from a complete or full atleast discussion of these ideas on how to use spells. The article would/could be changed over time to include more viewpoints; the article would have names and dates identifying each idea.
2007, 04, 03 21:06
My view of dwebs in maps.
On Avatar, the permamently placed disruption webs (dwebs), are used in the main's choke, and on or on top of ramps (and on the islands). Avatar features two chokes, one is blocked with 2000hp neutrals, the other has a dweb. Without the dweb, it might be hard to hold both chokes. The disruption web allows for easier defense, if you use it right. Also, a player can hold a scout inside the dweb, making the scout invulnerable to melee units. Now this is interesting, because it means zvp/pvz where melee units appear soon and promimently throughout the game, parts of armies, or just scouts can be in the enemy's base. In Avatar, they can just sit in the choke, not doing much; and can flee back to the dweb possibly. It also means that perhaps a scout lives because a marine or something cannot get off a last shot becasuse of the dweb. Melee units cannot attack units using the dweb properly, zlots on the edge or something against lings in the dweb or something.

I'll write more later, have to go now.
2007, 04, 03 21:23
Yes, that is one use of dwebs that I keep missing,hidding the scout. Works, better against zerg and toss because terran produces ranged units first (marines that is).
2007, 04, 04 02:43
Ok, so use on dwebs in maps. In Avatar, they are used well: makes holding 2chokes no problem, and keeps it from being impossible to get into them middle up the ramp.

Other uses of dwebs: in Disruption something (Flo's) he uses them primarily to keep the area from behind the nat a tank fest: it keeps it balanced by allowing all races to use the area behind, without making tanks god. In Namniar, he, as I said, makes regions of the maps "go to peace vigils" lol. What I mean by this is, certain areas of the map are blocked off entirely by dwebs, so units can pass through fine, but they cannot attack. I haven't found this use to be usefull yet. Also, I don't know how he has dwebs that close without crashing the map; if you place dwebs through sprites->unit sprites->neutral->protoss, they have large collision boxes and can't touch eachother without crashing the map...

Theoretically, the use of dwebs is infinite. I've seen them used on islands to limit turtling, allowing for more space without making it too hard to defend, or making on a smaller island it not too hard to attack. On a small island it's easy to turtle, having dwebs limits this. On a large island, it can be hard to defend since you mostly can't effectively turtle (depends on map/size of island of course), having dwebs keeps the plentiful room, and limits locations where enemies can attack, a doom drop could mess up if half the units are under dweb lol.
2007, 04, 04 03:27
"...they have large collision boxes and can't touch eachother without crashing the map..."

That is not quite true, there can be a certain degree of overlap between dwebs, download Caissa and check it out on scmdraft2.

I guess you are joining Innept now (he claims you can turtle at chokes). How can you possibly turtle on an island? The only use of the word "turtling" I have ever heard before coming here is restricted to lingering in your main or nat + main.
2007, 04, 04 04:01
People seem to be afraid of swarms. They definitely have possible balance issues, whereas most uses of dwebs does not effect the game racially, only strategically. However, TINTBSO mappers!

In LostTampon's one stupid space map which for some reason recieved some considerable attention in one of the competitions, there's swarms on some ramps. Now what does this do? Firstly, in tvz, terran can never truly safely cross these, as any zerg would put 1 or 2 lurks on a swarmed bridge and they would be almost invulnerable (only spells would kill them). In pvz, large numbers of units couldn't safely cross, although storm makes it easy to clear. Terran would most certainly mine up the swarm. In his other map, The Last Conflict, swarm is used in a very interesting way. It is on the side of an expo. This has the greatest danger to terran, who have no melee units. Firebats are medium ranged, only their splash would work, which wouldn't work on burrowed lurks. This is especially annoying tvt, in the rep "tvt chard lastconflictwin.rep" (currently the only rep on the map even though I know other games were played on it oO), where I went 14cc to 3fact gol, he lost his command center when 1 siege tank and 2 goliaths were dropped in the dweb. Scvs always miss under swarm. Without siege mode or mines, there was no way to stop this. Now this could have been avoided of course with some competence in tvt, it still poses the threat to terran.

In (4)SPESFIDISSIMA by myself (map is not in the database currently, and since I haven't improved it at all, I see no reason why I should reupload it =/), I used swarms inside the main. I more or less replicated the swarm use in (4)Shushan Day. The swarms were not close enough to minerals for even a tank to hit a miner or the cc/nexus/hatch. However, what they do actually do is quite interesting. For one, they provide a good spot for t to drop in tvt, only mines would be effective (lol or nuke) or tanks to kill units in there. This allows much smaller drops to be so much more effective. Any race can drop in there to do some dammage to any nearby buildings (there was plenty room in the main to build elsewhere). If swarms are placed properly, marines can use them to fight incoming mutalisks, mutas could not hit marines in the swarm.
Now, my favourite use of swarm in that map is in the back, with a nearby dweb. Now, this possibly could be used against mutas or something, but based on the position, I doubt that. Now this provides a good spot to drop in safely or something, but that too is not what is most promiment. I might upload some reps from SPESFIDISSIMA into Shushan's map thing to show what happened. Essentially, it can work the same way dwebs do for scouts. With a swarm inbase, a scout can hide from terran marines or protoss dragoons! Especially combined with a nearby dweb, this also offers lot's of strategical/cheese room. pvp was great in SPESFIDISSIMA. You can place a pylon in the dweb where zlots can't attack, a gate in the swarm (units produced can't be hit by goons); and early zlots/goons can jump from dweb to swarm wherever needed to fight and exploit the spells. If they go goon, hide an army in swarm lol. If they go zlot, try and move your units to get them into the dweb; this works with goons or zlots. It's like fencing, where a person might make 9 moves just to get the other person into a position where they can actually get them.

Another use of swarms is in media res, like in Regardant Hawkeye. This is purely strategical. The swarm is in an area where fighting might take place, but not somewhere so key that it effects balance. pvt/tvp is interesting with these; both can place units in swarm or behind swarm or something to keep the spells hurting the enemy and not you.
Dwebs can also be used like this. In both mass numbers and limitedly. With just a couple dwebs in an open area, they are still very effective in altering the fighting strategically, without being too radical, like in Avatar. If protoss attacks a terran army and t quick sieges, they could lose a couple tanks in dwebs. Alternatively, terran could siege behind dwebs so that a limited number of goons can attack them.
What I haven't seen is a nice combination of both swarm and dweb.

Mass spells! In Caissa, Lancet used a very interesting checkers' board pattern of dwebs, to "give everyone a rough fucking".
The biggest worry of mass spells, can be accurately summarized by our Excaliber,
"The current reccomendation for sprites is to keep them below 50. I count, and i did this quickly, 64 webs, and 6 swarms. Thats 70 sprites. Is it a bit much? Yes. Is it, on MOST plays of this map, going to affect gameplay? I would say most definately not. On occasion it might come into play on a long drawn out game full of macro.
"
Is this true? It certainly makes sense. SPESFIDISSIMA had like 90 or so sprites I think, maybe more. Avatar has like 70? LGI and Psychotemplar both exclaimed worries that unit sprites, valkyrie missiles, hydra acid shots, muta gloves, etc, would not appear. This certainly makes sense, IF the sprite limit which appears in the editor is a full sprite limit. Now, I think this is not so. I think that, this is the maximum number of sprites which can be placed in a map, WITHOUT encroaching the gameplay. What proof do I have? Have you guys ever seen a map called Arkanoid? Ever played it? Ever seen valkyries shooting perfectly fine on it? -.- Lancet says that on Caissa he went and maxed out 200/200 and units shot fine. Therefore, the sprite limit on maps is either meaningless, or as I said before, the max number of sprites before it hurts the gameplay.

With Lancet's mass dwebs, I'm not sure if balance is actually in trouble. I first commented Caissa, "The middle is unplayable, just an unrealistic concept imo. The fact that it is so wide will make it hard for the races who need tighter areas, p will probably win often since its hts can always cast under the dweb, but z and t will have most of their army under dwebs.
"
Lancet had said "Actually, it is not that bad because in this map there is enough space between the dwebs. The problem with melee units is when the enemy unit is on the edge of a dweb and the melee unit has to cross the dweb to attack. It will stop motionless next to the enemy unit (if the enemy unit is sufficiently away from the dweb it will attack it normally). The other problem is with ranged units attacking on their own. If they come within range of the enemy unit within a dweb they will freeze. The remedy? Micromanagement. You can't just brainlessly unleash several control groups of your units upon the enemy and let each unit pick its target. You need to pay attention to your attacking units and constantly maneuver groups of them around dwebs or pick specific targets for them. Finally, don't forget about going air, air units have no problem with dwebs and units on the ground have to be maneuvered around the dwebs to attack them."
Boongee had said "I think terran would have an easy time fighting in the middle. they could simply camp and push slowly through the cracks of the webs with tanks and marines/vults. attacking it would be suicide because like half your army wouldn't do anything" to which Lancet replied "In principle yes, but while you push "slowly" by the middle the enemy could drop on your main & nat (DTs & Lurkers) or flank you rapidly by the side corridors. Also in regular starcraft you move your tanks rapidly in a mass and siege them as such. Here you have to make sure each tank is in a black spot (in the center) or else it will be useless when you siege them (which is difficult to say the least).

But my point is that the center of this map does not promote the movement of troops for defense and attack in the normal manner to which starcraft players are accustomed to. New ways of playing starcraft will need to be worked out, which is of course fun! In the end you may be right, terran may have the upper hand in these kind of maps but I am sure that imaginative zerg and toss players will find ways to put up a fight"
2007, 04, 04 04:06
"I guess you are joining Innept now (he claims you can turtle at chokes). How can you possibly turtle on an island? The only use of the word "turtling" I have ever heard before coming here is restricted to lingering in your main or nat + main" Off topic but that's ok. Turtling is just defending, and usually includes large numbers of static defense. A player turtles, who sits in an area and builds a large defense. Mass cannons at your nat without making an army too is turtling. Getting most of your base destroyed, moving to an island, and massing off your lifted factories with your badmacro-providing 5k minerals/gas while making bunkers and turrets is turtling. If you take a small island, place two bunkers and nine turrets on the edge and interior, you are turtling.

How do you turtle at a choke? In Avatar, zerg's best zvt strategy is to 3hatch, placing the 2nd hatchery near the dweb. Zerg then places his sunks so that terran marines would have to run past the dweb in order to attack, ie suicide; terran cannot attack this through this route, zerg is turtling at his choke.
The accurate question is, how do you turtle without a choke? Turtling requires either a tight choke, or atleast not an open one, where static defense is strong, where large amounts of units can't run through and win. 6 groups of hydra can easily surround and kill 21 cannons if they are in the middle of the map. If they are placed behind the choke of a base, 2 groups of hydra might die attacking the first couple of cannons, then 2 more might die when zerg tries to move his hydra force into the fray so that more can attack.
"lingering in your main or nat + main" yes, and nats and mains have chokes. You could not turtle if there was no choke. ie, good fucking luck turtling in Volcanis.
2007, 04, 04 04:14
More on mass spells: Large amounts of ungrouped dwebs, by that I mean less concentrated than in Caissa, could be very interesting strategically, they would work just like I mentioned earlier. You could even add swarms to this. This would of course require a large open area. What about maps like forte? Spells in maps would be great to add to a map like that with such a wasteland of space. In such a map, where a vast open land is necessary for the concept, adding spells would make it interesting and keep it from being just a wasteland.

In LostTampon's Osiris, swarms are very strategically placed, and placed behind strategically placed dwebs. This creates a very strategical zone^^ It doesn't really hurt balance at all. I think most use of spells will be like this, to effect strategy not balance.
ShadowWord, also by LostTampon, uses a form of mass dwebs. Note in that map, how he creates an area of a peace vigil, but at the same time leaves holes in it to place units. Such placed units, if well done, could be very safe from melee, especially if their range was good. I think an earlier version of LostTampon's Chop Suey used swarms in a narrow canyon. This is nice, and I expect to see this in the future. It creates tight passages, canyons, which appear commonly in nature, but makes them usefull, accessible, by adding the swarms, so they don't get raped from above. I think a place where a cave/opening in a mountain with two canyon paths with swarms would be very interesting. The current version of that map has spells mostly on the sides of things; it's the swarms in the middle of it which could effect balance, but in this map there is plenty of room in alternate paths which are realistic to take (you don't have to go really far around the map to get to them, by taking them not the swarmed paths if you so desire, you aren't terrible delayed, nor are they too tight nor too open).

In many of these spells' maps, neutral buildings played an important role in the concept(s). I warn you, be carefull when using neutrals. Beware that some can be repaired, others can't; beware that some take forever to kill, others take a few seconds; beware that units often try and go through them, ie bad pathing; if using them, do so intelligently.
2007, 04, 04 04:30
wtf guys, have nothing else to say? to add? Come on now, I certainly didn't mention everything... or are you guys still reading my posts, they are somewhat long^^
2007, 04, 05 20:46
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