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[TLC] TeamLiquid Legacy Cup #14 and a half
page: 1




TLC #14 [b]SPOILER ALERT BELOW[/b]



After multiple PvZ finals being decided by Moon Glaive, we realized that the map pack needed to be bought up to date.

Big thanks to CardinalAllin for making us see the light in a humorous way without being confrontational.

We took his ridiculously biased advice and are using a full foreigner map pack because they are the best maps.

Apologies to Draw for making you get so angry and leave with no gg.
2015, 10, 26 19:19
I made a thread on teamliquid in the broodwar general section (not the tourney section) which was as above, plus pictures of the 5 maps.

It was using a large bitmap picture. The thread disappeared almost immediately and without an explanation so I thought it was a Bot autodelete due to the picture being too large. So I made it into a smaller jpeg and reuploaded.

After half an hour the new thread was also nuked and I was banned for 2 days.
ďReason: Why would you post the same thread that got closed before?Ē
I reply:
ďI thought it was because the picture was a bitmap at 1.29 megabytes. So I made it into a jpeg at 100kb instead. Please unban.Ē
Answer:
ďNo.Ē

I donít want my picture editing to go to waste so Ive shared it here.
Additionally though, ofcourse I donít like having my threads closed. Im unaware of the reason for it being closed but I suspect its either for being unkind or for being too similar to an official post.
My thread was not meant to be unkind at all, I aimed for it to be clearly playful. But if the parties involved or anyone felt differently I am open to that and would have altered it.
I believe my post had plenty of subtle and blatant clues throughout that it was not official, like an April Fools joke.

I do consider deleting a thread without explanation a bit silly when itís a borderline case and Id say my thread qualifies as a borderline case. I think itís a bit rude to not discuss with someone who is being reasonable especially when there has been a misunderstanding.

But anyway, I hope someone sees the funny side as that is all I intended it to be (and if you are perceptive and canny, you may even notice there is some elusive propaganda going on too!)
2015, 10, 26 19:19
Obviously because you spelled it "Saturnday" c:
2015, 10, 29 15:53
My '2 day' ban has expired now. I decided to re-post my thread as a blog, but massively compromised. The title and the introduction paragraph are both explanatory, and the original thread is hidden in a spoiler.
Link to the blog post on tl
2015, 10, 30 23:55
[q]I donít want my picture editing to go to waste so Ive shared it here.[/q]

Ikr that feeling. Those bastards cut off me long ago too when I brought up all maps:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/491163-ultimate-map-thread-for-tlc

I don't really take seriously that tourney and after Scan got banned I stopped watching it, such a shame.
2015, 11, 09 00:56
outscar, that thread you made has a few problems.
-Too many maps
-Jarring mix of objective and personal.
-Non official (you arenít an admin for the tour, so the maps you select are biased)
-Statements written as facts when they arent.
-Useless polls

But look, I remember how it came about and I understand why you made it. It was nice initiative which is a great quality.

Before you made this large poll thread, you had previously made a smaller poll.
I didnt vote in that original poll because it wasnt official and was biased. However, the result of that original poll ended up influencing the map selection.
After this, I publicly said why I didnít vote, and suggested that we let the admins create official polls.

This is when you went ahead and made the massive map thread with all the polls. Ive listed the problems with it above, but the 2 most important things are that its not official from a tour admin, and that the polls were useless.
It is impossible for us to be objective simply because we are not tour admins, so it isnít fair to try and make an all encompassing poll thread. It would only be fair for us to make small targeted polls.

I understand why you made a new thread rather than posting it in the map discussion thread that I had already made. It was for visibility.

Now I should explain why I made the map discussion thread and if it was right of me. At the time, the scan ban debate was at its height. So when people were commenting specifically about maps, it was a very spread out conversation.
So the creation of a map discussion thread was justified.
Should I have PMed an admin and suggested that he make the thread instead of me? Maybe I should have.
Should I have kept the OP clean, without posting any maps? Maybe. That would have been fine. At the same time, I think it was ok to promote the foreign maps that were in the iccup map pack. They are less known than Korean maps. It is a foreigner tournament. They are all in the iccup map pack so its less biased on my part.
Also, if I had left the OP clean, it provides no direction to kick start the thread. It leaves it to the first couple of people who post comments to guide the conversation which is bad.
By including the foreigner maps, I was basically posing the question ĎDo you want foreign maps in the TLC or not?í That is a good way to start the conversation.
So I admit that maybe I should have let an admin create the map discussion thread and that I promoted foreigner maps, but I did it in a way that was good netiquette. (not saying that you didnít outscar).
Indeed, by only posting the foreigner maps (and no Korean ones), I actually feel that it more clearly attempts to say: ĎLook, I am a biased foreign map maker, here is my suggestion, if you donít like it feel free to ignoreí. Rather than muddying it up by mixing them in with Korean maps. If I had done so, it could be seen as a bit devious and infact MORE biased. It would attempt to highlight my personal favourite Korean maps when I am not a tour admin. Its also slightly pointless and patronising to assume that the tour organisers are not already aware of the Korean maps.

Next point, the fact that one of the tour organisers commented saying he had never seen any of the maps I put in the OP, despite them all being iccup maps was shocking but proves that it was justified to promote them. The same argument could be used to refute my previous point; how perhaps the tour organisers donít already know the big Korean maps. Yes thatís fair, though its very easy to go back and look at what maps were used in the Korean tournaments if you donít follow the scene closely, whereas its not quite so easy to look at a collection of modern foreign maps.

There is a point about me being a part of the community and having my say too. So the question is; Do I put my opinion in the OP or do I make the OP clean, and then post my opinion in the comments section later on? Well, you could argue that I should do that. But its artificial. As the creator of the OP I know exactly when it is going to go live, so I can monitor the thread as it progresses in time (as more comments get made), and then post my comment exactly when I want. So I think its ok to post the opinion in the OP. And I did that by clearly labelling them as such with the heading ĎMy suggestionsí.

Lastly on this topic, I just want to say that I deliberately refrained from replying in the thread for several pages, to let it flow in the way that the community chooses. I think this is an important thing to do. Sometimes people who make an OP get personally attached to the thread, bumping it lots, or trying to force the conversation in the direction they want. That is really bad in my opinion. Instead I just put my opinion in, then left it, which I think is the good way of doing things.


Next, Id like to explain my TLC 14.5 OP a bit more, in the context of what has been said so far in this post.
My TLC 14.5 OP is different to your big map poll thread outscar. How? Well I was unashamedly biased. That was front centre and all the way through. It was the primary means of trying to be humorous.
What Im saying is, my OP is an opinion piece. Its creative picture editing. Whereas your big map poll thread is different. Yours requires a lot of work but its more number crunching, copy paste work. Its not an opinion piece, itís more like a factual document.
Mine is a kind of edgy opinion. Yours is a tool, it is either useful or it gets closed politely.
A tool isnít an opinion, so there is no reason for you to be angry outscar. I know it must have taken much time and effort to make the thread. So I see why its annoying to have that go to waste, but it isnít censorship so donít hold a grudge! Its just that your tool didnít fit the needs of the job at hand. The polls wouldnít yield useful stats.


Sooooo, anyway..

Outscar, you only wrote 2 sentences. Im aware that its silly to extract too much out of too little. If I am about to do that, sorry.

I also know that on the internet, by writing a large amount of words, it can appear that one person is Ďtelling offí another person sort of. But understand that actually Im just explaining various things from my point of view. Most isnt directed at you at all. Im certainly not trying to tell you off.

With those caveats, and at the risk of sounding silly Im going to break down what you said.
You quoted me saying ďI donít want my picture editing to go to waste so Ive shared it here.Ē And you say you know the feeling.
I donít really compare picture editing for a personal opinion piece to factual document type things. Like I said earlier, its more copy-paste number crunching work. Its still work, but its not creative in quite the same way. But yeah, I totally understand you. Nobody likes doing work for nothing. To be fair though, it happens all the time. Sometimes theres a good reason for it, sometimes there isnít. When there isnít, thatís when you should object.

The name calling isnít necessary, lets leave that out.
You say they cut you off long ago. Well, it wasnít that long ago, but either way the passage of time is irrelevant unless you want to hold a grudge, and I advise against that. Deal with each problem as it comes and just try to improve things as you go forward [editor: is this guy reading fortune cookies or something?].
They didnít cut you off, the mod very politely closed the thread and I agreed with that decision.

Next sentence:
ďI don't really take seriously that tourney and after Scan got banned I stopped watching it, such a shame.Ē
Personally I donít take it seriously while Moon Glaive is in the map pack and especially with it being used in a best of 1 in the round of 32 stage. I donít want to go into the scan ban subject.

Taking my own advice, what can we do next? Actually outscar you could do me a massive favour.
We never did have our polls done officially by a tour admin. This is what we should do:
There are 5 maps in the TLC map pack. And there are 8 maps in the Ďmap discussioní thread.
We should set up polls for these maps. Each map has its own poll.
People rate each map on a 1 to 7 scale. (7 is the best, 1 is the worst).
Post these polls in the Map Discussion thread (it will be on page 3). Put a picture of the map before each poll.
So when you look at the post you are presented with a picture of the first map, then a poll below which rates it 1 to 7.
Then the next picture showing map number 2, and its corresponding poll below. And so on.
I will change the OP to point towards the polls on page 3.

This way, if Moon Glaive gets rated 4 by 20 people, but a foreigner map gets rated 5 by 20 people, I think that is moving towards somewhat useful stats.

The amount of work is not too much, only 13 maps. Its perfectly legitimate to rate the current TLC map pool vs the iccup foreign maps. There is no grounds for a mod to delete anything so theres no worry of that.
What do you think outscar? Do you want to do that? If not I probably will on Sunday. If you do wish to make these polls, please let me know and I can then post a comment in the TLC#16 thread which links to your polls. This way they will be nice and visible which alleviates the concern you had previously.
2015, 11, 09 15:54
Cardinal I didn't expect massive explanation and appreciate your feedback where you tried to calm my grudge down but honestly I'm one sided person and I'm just not going to attempt any type of these things again because I know which results will come. We can bla bla bla over 12 pages but it won't change anything cause "Dura lex sed lex".
Posting map poll when barely any tournies left?
Do you think even if my poll succeeded admins gonna let those maps to use by implementing those changes? No, everything could be the same. Like Freakling said: Koreans refuse to try new map because of players awareness, I add: Foreigner's can't test them because admins' awareness, lol.
Remember maps which are started from 12th edition still running? Who allowed those maps to be used, doesn't that mean admin (I believe 2pacalypse) choosed them by himself and thus his choice is super biased?
Like I said I don't care about tourney furthermore and they can use whatever they want, even Fastest Possible with Blood Bath combined. It's useless to point any maps out when there are barely any tournies left. I care about maps, I play on them but they not. And even players have gone, barely 28 guys manage to compete, guess why?
I don't think we need further discussions, you can disagree cause it's your right but I don't care. I'm moving on.
2015, 11, 15 01:41
PS: Excuse me for grammatical errors, nvm them, I was in hurry (and maybe in fury?).


I really wanted to argue your points hardly and prove myself but then erased my statements because it's too late and train is gone. By saying all that above I meant that I care about only maps so please don't stop making them and let the BW legacy live. I am not organizer to implement these beauties to tournaments so only thing left for me is to enjoy them. Cheers!
modified by outscar
2015, 11, 15 01:44
OK thats cool, I'll do the polls. I havent done any before but will give it a go.

I agree there are not many tours left. These weekly cups were designed to get players practicing so they will be ready for the main event which comes after the 20 cups. So I still think its worth it.

Id also like to note that many foreign tournament organisers are using foreign maps recently, theres like 4 going on at the moment, its pretty cool. And iccup have been adding foreign maps to the map pack.
Foreign map usage is at an all time high!

We dont know how the maps were chosen for tlc, lets not speculate. Also, as much as Id like to think that the map selection is the reason for unpredictable player participation, I dont believe its the only factor.

But anyway, I hear you loud and clear; you dont want to get involved. Thats absolutely fine, no problem.
2015, 11, 16 13:01
Ive created the polls.

Click Here

2015, 11, 16 15:17
I've voted to foreigner maps 7 (some 4) and 1 to all current maps :) Still a sound in my head says even if all our maps get only 7 nobody will give a fuck.
2015, 11, 16 16:20
The problem with threads like that is simple that they promote an agenda that is one-sided and tailored to your "personal profit".
As that, it's not going to achieve anything, at least not what you want it to.
2015, 11, 18 12:25
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