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Forum - offtopic
bifrost balancing
page: 1
i was creating a sketch yesterday evening, when this came to my mind.

i am familiar with the structure of bifrost, but i hardly played on it ever. thus, i don't have a clue how balancing was on it.
how went the MUs PvZ, PvT and especially TvZ?

considering our theorycrafting implied on this map, this would get bad notes. did zergs in PvZ rape protoss with those 2 entrances (on front even 3 zeals without ramp needed), did terran own zergs badly (no gas fe, 3 hatch with sunkens at entrance AND backdoor), have terrans used the backdoor to invade zerg minonly (lings can hardly stop MM back there), and so on?

theorycrafting is hard, so i'd like to have some additional thoughts on how gameplay, strats and balance was these days on bifrost. i can only recall ~10 replays/games i played/watched on this map.

did such a off-the-box-map obtain good balancing in statistiques? was it considered imbalanced in any MU? i can't believe it was perfectly accepted as balanced - even then, when esports wasn't a big shot yet.

so, what made bifrost popular was the uncommon and fresh style, being so different from anything else. can we actually repeat such a success, or has professional and competitive gaming killed all approachs to really different maps? too many (dumb, but well) players complain about "new" maps and keep playing LT/luna. would Lightning (e.g.) stand a chance to get into any league with its incredible game changing features? or are even slight approaches to s.th. new - like chameleon - widely refused? or was chameleon just the wrong map for it?

so, was bifrost for example balanced, was it considered being a "good" map, or just a "popular" one. which races chose it when having loser's choice in which mu? whatever you know about bifrost balancing, share it please, i am really interested into this topic


/edit
uh, i posted into OT. should have been "main"
modified by flothefreak
2006, 06, 02 12:02
PvZ was fine, considering the gas expo was so hard to secure. all you had to do was block off your main choke and keep probe at other place, if you see lings come just bring zealots over that simple. only thing bad was that youhad to tech late pvz.

TvZ is another story...the good terrans knew zerg had to play a 1 gas build so terrans usually just went fast tanks cuz mostly everyone did the 1 hatch lurk build. it worked sometimes if ppl didnt know the map.
2006, 06, 02 18:03
My favorite map ever, and it was just so abnormal!
2006, 06, 02 23:00
Okay, while I'm waiting for SpitFire to post a new version of The Artist, I'll write here.

Bifrost... surprisingly, the back door didn't really fuck everything up too badly. It could be walled with one supply or one pylon (but the pylon let lings through) and the front could be walled with 1 rax or 1 supply. So it's not like the backdoor was a HUGE problem normally. Not as much as it would be expected to be.

The fact that the only safe expansion on the map was a mineral only behind the main was pretty strange, but I don't think it made a huge imbalance (I just went to PGT to check if they had map stats in their first seasons, because they have Bifrost in those seasons, but sadly, nope)... I think as much trouble as Z had with one gas, so did P and T. Though a lot of people say that a nat without gas will make it imbalanced, I donno if that's true. You just can't play the same, and Bifrost didn't play the same. For example, I read a strat on TL.net for PvZ on Nostalgia. People would assume that Z>P on Nostalgia because a few lurkers > a lot of zeals, and P couldn't get many templars off of one gas, but the TL.netters offered an interesting strat. One base, 5 gates goon range. At first you think "you can't run 5 gates from one base", but the main has 9 mineral patches. The strat works pretty well to keep Z from taking a second expansion. Bifrost also has 9 min patches in the main (I'm pretty sure).

The alternate routes everywhere. There are 4 routes to your opponent's base, and personally, I loved it because I'm Protoss. But I'm sure all races benefit from it. ZvT Zerg can sneak around and attack T's expos. TvP Terran can harass with vults everywhere. PvT you can flank/move around their army. But it was made sure that since there were so many routes possible, some of them were bridges, so it wasn't complete flank domination in PvT and ZvP.

So I think the challenge that flo is getting at is this: can we make a map that is so different from other maps, yet still is accepted and played, just like Bifrost was? I think yes, but it's going to be a lot harder than it was before, because Bifrost was old school, that was a long time ago.

Flo, you've inspired me, I gotta start mapping again now.

Hope someone enjoys my essay.
2006, 06, 03 07:58
Ouch. Bifrost is one of my favourites, but sometimes it is really gay. oO
2006, 06, 03 08:07
epidion hit exactly what i wanted :D

now let me tell you the story of it:
i was recently making a motw-news at bw.de
there were a few replys, and one catched my attention: "sure, those are good maps, but why don't you do anything like bifrost?"
BAM. it struck me. after 20 seconds i had a sketch drawn on paper integrating many features and basics of bifrost - but a surely different msp.
i am currently working on it, and even if it fails - i hope i will just be able to create a map worthy to bifrost.
2006, 06, 03 10:54
to be honest bifrost doesnt interest me a bit.. its ugly (for one).. the layout isnt interesting and i really dont like min only behind the mains'.
2006, 06, 04 02:55
how can you say its ugly? its an art map
2006, 06, 04 06:57
i wuldnt say so
2006, 06, 04 07:41
Bifrsot is outstanding... My favourite... Sweetie.
Why? Couse there are many routes. Backdoor is interesting: it can make some trouble at the start, but its not big problem couse it tooks a long time while armie gets around that path... so if you scout u can defend easily... No gas at the natural is rater a feature rather than disadvantage. Why? Couse this is reason why u should expo sooner. And also u can make ur first expansion not at ur natural, but further (e.g. if u spawned at 6, u can expo at 10, so its not a big problem to defend at the start, couse if u put a scout at the top, there would be only one route to ur expo)... anyway bifrost is a great map :D
2006, 06, 07 17:15
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