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Last update for (2)Trench Warfare : 2007, 06, 03 20:21
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
1029 (2)Trench Warfare 128*128flothefreak3.4final

The map has been rated 94 times and got a total of 316 points
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Comments:   GMCS (2 elements)


flothefreak
a new map by: me

think it's kinda selfexplaining :D
the concept is based on a large rust-path that can be used in many variations. together with the expo setup, it should provide some cool battles.

the best thing about the map is the bottom gas expo.
you can DECIDE which mineral line you want to take. if a terran got his minonly, you can still expand down there on the other side, mining only "your" minblocks but still having gas.
plus, if you dare, you can set another 2nd hatch/CC/nex down there so you have another minonly - 2in1 expo :D
cannot really describe what's all possible with it, but i guess you can imagine


I hope the gameplay will be quite dynamic due to the rusty path and the expo layout^

thx to listoric =)
and i don't want to keep this picture secret:
Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

rox!
Arden(WoF)
Really like it, only problem I have is the ramps. Is it possible to extend those a bit? It seems like there will be a lot of unit movement in the lower area, it might make it a little easier
flothefreak
will have to boost decoration some more btw
flothefreak
no, not possible, sry
would only look extremly crappy, and that's why i don't even think about it^^
Listoric
finally!

*downloading*
decafchicken
decaf likey :)

Edit: Perhaps use the trenches/ramp to creat a back door on the nat or something?
modified by decafchicken
--v mOsQ
tvz imbalance
VomiT
i like the way it looks, nice symmetry
LGI
I think that u need more gas.
maximumdan
this could be an improved bottom setup for romanov standoff
Listoric
Ok, i finally managed to play the map. It's good but strange at the beginning (just because of the fact that the main minerals are directed to the center, not to the mapedge, just felt "strange" - but i'm into Dawnofwar more atm so that may just be my feeling)

Next thing simply was the "missing" space to build warpgates in front of the natural. i felt like i had no idea where to put my warpgates. It felt like i had to search for space which made it kinda stupid. So, more buildingspace near the natural as well as the minonly would aid gameplay i'd say.

I also "wanted" to build something near the ramp betwen the mineral only and the natural, and had no space to do so. maybe check that out also.

still, a great map. i really like it.
panschk[FP]
yeah ~ gosu map:)
LaO-Artanis
I do feel sorry for Z's in ZvT in this. Marines can get behind the natural and completely own the drones. Z will need a lot of sunkens to protect itself against that. Suggestion is to make one high platform-wall behind it to prevent early rines from being too much of a pain in the ass for Z.
flothefreak
gonna check building space @lis

highground wall seems wise to me. also helps p to stand a chance in pvz against hyd/lurk harass back there. maybe I'll add another ramp behind the natural then (similar to gaema gowon) to make it some more attractive
yenku
cool map its sorta like a romanov standoff, but i still like it.
Arden(WoF)
It's kinda like Romanov I suppose, only Flo was a lot more creative with lowground/highground tiles. Romanov = flat and open.
flothefreak
what part of it is romanov except space and 100% symmetry?
flothefreak
updated, provided seriously more building space around the natural. I did not add a highground wall behind the nautral so far...

tell me what you think of a wall like this.
would probably make the natural more safe...but it would deny several tactics :<
inept
the entire top part along with the expo placement is almost identical to romanov. only difference is low ground path instead of a huge island and bases are a little farther apart.
flothefreak
did you even look at romanov before writing this?
inept
why, do you think that was stated as "your a copying noob"? it wasn't. i was just stating that if you acutally look the expo layout is similar as well as the base setup.
flothefreak
and i state that the "base setup"s only have in common to be on right and left with ramp facing down. and i state that the expo layout is NOT similar. PLEASE open both pictures, look at the spots of the expos and the paths around it, the connections and stuff. and then say sorry for writing nonsense.
inept
i just did...they still look alike.im not talking about the little details. im talking in the big picture how the gameplay will be. the only big gameplay difference is the very protected nat in romanov while this one is open...i stand my ground that the layout is similar
flothefreak
just for you, a nice little painting

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

GG. facts > your drivel.
inept
thank you for proving my point. as you can see there is a expo that connects everything, as well as a pretty much straight path to enemy with big battle field and trench has expos off to the side while romanov is more in your face. it is enough to make game play similar
flothefreak
no, i can't see
omg, i will stop it now. think whatever you want.
Listoric
Ok, i tried really really hard to see some things that kinda are the same, or at least could be the same if they would not be totally different O_o

Actually, i have no idea where these maps look the same, or remind of each other. Maybe you see it, but i (and flo obviously) don't inept, sry o_O.

Edit: Add a highground wall, think it would prevent early attacks.
modified by Listoric
flothefreak
1) update
2) highground walls suck
3) highground walls didn't work
4) rusty pit worked
5) rusty pit rox
6) took rusty pit :)
flothefreak
i like the rating

i like you too ~~
LGI
I don't know if it's possible to add the suggestions in GMCS without moving the exps and the ramps with one tileset, but you might try if you like the idea. I think it will make the rusty pit more mobile.

I am still looking at this map, and i still can't imagine very mobile games on the rusty pit. I really hope i am wrong, but it's just feels like that. Ofcourse i should try the map how it's in game, but from the picture this is my view...
flothefreak
i already thought about a backdoor ramp, but i dunno if it is a good idea actually :<

comments on that?
--v mOsQ
H A T E
T H I S
N E W B I S H
M A P
!
flothefreak
:)
LGI
OMFG :)
flothefreak
do you think there is too much cash on the map?
I wonder if I should cut off some minblocks, since the map itself is not really made for macro battles

a few opinions about the backdoor ramps would be cool, too
modified by flothefreak
trcc
Hmm, the third gas is neutral ( middle expo ), and it has 12 minerals, so i think if you succeed into securing this expo, you got more gas than the other unless he has the island, and with a incredible bonus of 12 minerals :P


"The backdoor" do you mean the space behind natural?
NastyMarine
sry my dude but this def is a macro map. and the center is made for macro battles. idk what ur idea is about a macro battle but that middle is designed for one. Really tho all battles involve micro but that middle so huge it wuld be silly not to utilize it all.

About the back door ramp.. go for it! honestly it wuld be very f-ing cool but z players may complain a bit but i dont think it wuld be too bad.. theres lots of ways to approach it saying its bad or not but its a go if i had a say in it
inept
imo you should work on a new map or make a different one better. this concept gets quite monotonous and i personally think it is one of your worst maps.
flothefreak
well, with the trench on bottom part of the map, you also got a quite narrow paths...

and trcc: you'd need two headquarters to use the 12 minblocks. and one side can always be attacked by your enemy.

i also like the idea of that backdoor ramp, but i don't want to cause imbalance... i underestimate esp. TvZ very often in my maps cuz i don't really know it... so some other thoughts of experienced mappers are appreciated
Steampunk
cool map can't wait to try it with friends
NastyMarine
well in tvz z def dictates what t does early. a ramp wuld actually make the game more interesting but z's may complain.. but on the other hand the trench is actually very long so unit travel wuld take longer to get to the ramp

wen it comes down to it .. a ramp at the nats wuld be alot of fun but not a wise desicion... perhaps send me a version with a ramp at each nat and ill get exalted to play on that map tvz ... and if he uses it and owns z too many times then i'd say get rid of it.. but z can defend that position. but idk how well. i dont z
flothefreak
added a nice replay ;D
worth watching, even if it was (or just because of this) a fungame
flothefreak
i think about adding a minblock to the 12h island. it is already quite hard to outexpand terran, and the isle seems to be a too easy 3rd gas for T. there is few gas on the map anyway, so i think preventing a floating CC would help.
flothefreak
or i enlarge the island a bit so it has some unbuildable dropzones around it...

what do you think?
flothefreak
I uploaded a new version. I eliminated several bugs occuring at the doublemin-gasexpo.
there have been problems with the sprite-parts of doodads (tanks behind could siege the gas) and the gas itself (SCVs got stuck behind the gas when they started mining gas but the CC at the expo wasn't finished yet, so they wanted to reach natural/main-CC).

it damages look a bit, but i had to do it, because bugs=nono ;)

i havent touched the 12h island yet, still waiting for your opinions
yenku
lol... flo. why do you make such a big deal out of that? I just thought that the basic layout _reminded_ me of romanov standoff. I hate it when people are pricks over the internet for no reason.
flothefreak
what are you referring to??
king of 8 plr maps

modified by king of 8 plr maps
LaO-Artanis
I've used this map in a showmatch between PredY and incontrol, and unfortunately the low platform seems like a good idea, but hardly ever gets used. I'll post the rep here now.
flothefreak
you speak of the rusty pit? i have played many times, and i can assure you, it GETS used. a major part of the neutral expos is located there, gee...
king of 8 plr maps
see those minerals, i get rid of them or move it to the trenches, they just fuk up game play.

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us
flothefreak
i know it is thight there. but this doesn't fuck up gameplay...in fact, they help because you don't need enlargened ramps then down there
king of 8 plr maps
you have enough money, you dont need that mistake to be there for this map.
flothefreak
it would screw the feeling and fluency of the map completely. it causes serious problems with pathing, but not too disturbing. you haven't even played it, you don't ever make 2playermaps. so don't think you can judge this map easily.
king of 8 plr maps

modified by king of 8 plr maps
flothefreak
no, it is not perfect. as i said, you don't have experience with 1on1 maps. this would make the minonlys untakeable.
king of 8 plr maps

modified by king of 8 plr maps
flothefreak
i have arrived at your 5 years experience long time ago, so you're long way behind. if you can spot mistakes in gameplay, then finally show it in a map. I also made alot maps. and i also fucking know what works. PLUS, i do test it.
what you suggest is not making it perfect. don't be so arrogant-stupid. it would screw the expansion layout. adding one minblock is the only thing of your whole post that is worth deliberating more than 1sec.
king of 8 plr maps
your expansions dont have to daisy chain for it to be used, I know what you where thinking when you made the expansion layout, it sounds good in theory, but those minerals I was talking about just stick out like noob map maker would just put there, so you can continue your expansion.

If your experience as me then why dont you fix the problem, and still keep flow of expansions but not kill map with it like it is now.

map way it is now its like 80% good map with that 20% game killer in way to making it 100%

guess you can keep it like this, if you like walking over your workers to retreat or protect your bottom mid expansions.

modified by king of 8 plr maps
Scorpion
Hey, this kinda looks like Romanov Standoff but flipped around a little.

That crazzzzeyyy expansion right smack in the middle, the one that you can build two cc's/nex/ etc, turn it into a hole, move it a bit up, and that small dot of an island, extend it a bit.

You've got romanov Standoff. V_v;
king of 8 plr maps

modified by king of 8 plr maps
LaO-Artanis
Added this map to another showmatch. See this for more info.
flothefreak
that is all plain bullshit, and you know this. if you had any clue of mapmaking, you would know that RoV, Romanov and TW play all totally different.

there is no point in arguing with you. you have no idea of anything, behave like you'd have, and every semi-intelligent person would remark which bullshit he or she is writing there.

you know what you're saying?
"everyone is a clone, because everyone has 2 legs, to arms, two eyes, 1 head, two ears and hairs. same as with maps. there is no difference, maps are clones just as every human is.
we should start making disabled children, those are more interesting becaue they're new and fresh!"

omg i cannot believe it.
please, don't ever post in one of my maps again. your 'help' and your incredible - how you call it - experience is not appreciated here.
modified by flothefreak
king of 8 plr maps
Im just trying to help you out so you can make better maps, quit biting my hand, im on your side and im defending this map cause i like it.

modified by king of 8 plr maps
flothefreak
firstly, the rating has been abused. it doesn't show anything. sorry for destroying your main argument.

don't dare to try "pimping" any of my maps. those are restricted area for you. Do i try to explain Michael Schumacher how to handle the gages? no? so don't try to tell me what 2player-map is a good one and what is cloning.

you CAN NOT judge any map here on this site. at least for all maps with less than 6 player, you showed this many times now. especially not about "mistakes". by the way, you're not superior or the better-knowing master concerning me, so your imagination of "biting your hand" is not fitting. it's more that i _kick_you_, the dog, because you try to teach me walking on two legs, just because you bark better than me.

i may quit and leave you with a quotation:
"please, don't ever post in one of my maps again. your 'help' and your incredible - how you call it - experience is not appreciated here."
lnept
its just a stupid map ...just let it rest king of 8 plyr maps...not like this will ever be pro...whocares
king of 8 plr maps
I dont like how floth turns my suggestions into a argument, then starts having ego attacks, I dont care whos good or great, hes just loves to show people hes superior, I hate people like that.

Im like defending him and hes attacking me with personal threats.

modified by king of 8 plr maps
Scorpion
king of 8 plr maps, while I strongly disagree with your idea to 'better' this map, and I do agree flothefreak turns comments into arguments, I think everyone can agree with me on this:

You aren't the fucking pro at anything other than posting useless shit about how talented you are at making 6-8 player maps and how 6-8 player maps rock, when in fact, the ones you make fucking suck.

Please, king of 8 plr maps, stop calling your maps 'pro', stop calling yourself 'king', get a life, a girlfriend, and shut the fuck up.
modified by Scorpion
NastyMarine
that wasnt necessary at all Scorprion.

Solution: how bout we jus relax and make maps okay?

BY THE WAY:
Always manners > skillz
flothefreak
i like especially how king edited everything out if his post so none can read what he said. you desperately wanted to state that you'd be the pro in the first place, so don't try to pass this buck to me.

and lnept is the omniscient pro anyway.
king of 8 plr maps
Im done with you I removed all my sugestions, and those post i was defending you out, because your a dick head and you dont want anybodys help your freak.
im defending your map and your attacking me your retarded or something.
inept
flo you make enemies..online...

its just a broodwar map...hello?
flothefreak
whatever, i don't care if you don't like me or if you want to marry me. just because it is online. i am not depending on you in any way, just because it is an online game.

saying all the time "i know it better, and despite of making 8playermaps all the time i know better - without even having played it - what is good for your map" is no help or defending. and if you don't get it, i will flame you until you finally leave me alone, and let my maps go away without your terrible improvements. so basically, YOU are the retarded dickhead, because it was you thinking you'd have the upper hand.

i played the map many times, it has been used for GGnet showmatches, clanmates never said anything about it (and the members of the clan I'm in usually say it when s.th. in a map screws them, they're no dumb yes-sayers) and there has never been a problem. so why the hell did you even start to THINK you could be in the superior position in this whole discussion. you have never been in it at any time.

but I am glad you finally give in and stop talking.
king of 8 plr maps

modified by king of 8 plr maps
king of 8 plr maps
I found the flaw in your map, and you agreed with me it was a minor problem, now your backing off of it. yes alot people didnt spot that flaw, but alot them dont make maps like we do.

that problem doesnt come to foreground cause your trench doesnt get used to much, the players play on mid back and forth, so they dont see it being a problem.

Ive also seen replays in this map to confirm.

I'd rather get tips from map makers, they better at spotting bugs. somtimes playing map doesnt expose it.

playing map only good to test balance and gameplay.


modified by king of 8 plr maps
Scorpion
Uploaded a replay, a good one. Me = PsychoSniper, this was a gg since i haven't played in a while.

I played very sloppy :(

I like the map, it's pretty good
modified by Scorpion
Scorpion
Holy crap, that replay I uploaded, Eye-Noob was hacking O_o;

And troughout the whole game... i didn't even know it, but i still won ;D
lnept
yea hopefully this map will be on PGT so i can go 100 % in PvT
flothefreak
on D-? maybe, yeah.
not we shoudl start discussing why there is T>P and P>T on this map at the same time.
LaO-Artanis
TvP is the best MU on this map imo. The T will have to use the trenches a lot to win, whilst the P will want to try and lure the T in the open. should make some good games, and I don't see any T>>>>>P or P>>>>T.
lnept
D-? lmao...im already 11-4 D+, no time for noobs.
Nightmarjoo
The map has stupid pathing across the middle, and the middle is such a long boring wasteland.
lnept
yup, terrible pathing and stupid ass gameplay, looks like inept conquers again
flothefreak
in how far terrible pathing?
LGI
I also didn't like the gameplay. Every game on this map is somehow boring and the same as the previews... I don't know how to explain it but i just didn't liked the gameplay.
flothefreak
hm those 3 reps i just watched were all different

PvT drop action
PvZ rush vs FE
pvp offgates and expo into mass
flothefreak
changes:
-new ramp behind natural expansion. should add some additional usage of the pit. value=16.
-as i needed more gas, i gave one to the corner expansions, to lay still more emphasis on the pit.
-also, i made the center expo blocked by two large temples and gave 2 gases with value 2500 each. this setup will make the expansion more interesting both ways - for players to take, and generally in the game.
spinesheath
I guess you are now going to upload those 18 reps on that map as well? ;)

Good changes.
flothefreak
yeah :D
Nightmarjoo
I don't like this map. Maybe reps will convince me otherwise... idk =/
lnept
I said it from the beginning that this map sucked ass but nobody believed me. all my games on this map were 8/8 gate proxy in center where scouting probe doesnt see, or one time i went reaver into dt drop vs scout. bleh this map is anoyin.
NastyMarine
I don't understand why you feel its not good. it has dynamic terrain which makes it fun, and its not experimental.
spinesheath
Probably because the main-nat-enemy setup is so straight. There is not much which would block a very aggressive gameplay, so this map probably is, again, one of those that only in very rare cases lead to longer games.
flothefreak
that is right to a certain extent. seven sins was created with such a purpose of only aggressive games, trench warfare on the other hand wasnt. the games i played so far lay much emphasis on rush builds and aggressive early game. though, it isnt a rush-killer-map like SS, but the attempt of getting an advantage in early game by damaging the enemy. so there are many longer games- however, obviously not as long as some full-use-of-map LT 1on1s; as the map is quite straight and makes it easy t punish enemy's mistakes and weaknesses (and because it is a 2plyr).

basically i'd say, concerning aggressivity and duration of games can be compared quite good to RoV's.
flothefreak
i changed the top part slightly. now you have a route which leads between the minerals of the island and the 12h centerexpo. i figured it would help both harassing and defending there. i am not sure if i keep it at all or if i keep it in another shape (maybe remove the paths from the center so only those paths from the centerexpominerals remain, and modify a few minblocks there that you can only use this path once you have taken the centerexpo?)

not sure about this. it was a mindflash, i will have to see your opinions/ingame tests.

i also changed mainbase mineral formations for better wandering (antrax edge)
flothefreak
fixed a bug at the northern center expansions that forced gas miners to spawn outside of the expansion under certain circumstances when the neutral building was not yet destroyed. the ion cannons look ugly on the pic, i will see how it is ingame.


should i remove or block the 12h island? there are some battles around it, but there is no way to get it back in some matchups, once the enemy has it (TvT, PvT, ZvP)...
this would enhance focus on the bottom part of the map as well...
Nightmarjoo
I hate that uppermost island, but I can't really come up with a reason besides I don't like it why to remove it :(
flothefreak
yeah that's about what i think of it ;o
so i decreased the value of it heavily by making it 5 minblocks only and the gas in ToE-style

although i think it's finished, i will make some more games on it to see if the island and the changes at the centerexpo (and the hardly used backdoors) work out.
modified by flothefreak
flothefreak
small fixes and a very funny replay (ftf vs nb.toti)
flothefreak
after playing many games and improving the map, i still wasnt satisfied. there were some things i didnt like on the map, so i thought what issues were disturbing me. now i made a playability update and i'll see if it's good now.

-players tended to expand in the bottom corners as 2nd expo because it had gas and the minonly was not as secure. so i emptied the corner gas, while adding a 2500 gas to the minonlies. the CC/nex/hatch there cant be shot from the center expo anymore and vice versa.
-the top island has now very limited building space, so in order to use it, you'll need some troops there permanently.
-the xelnaga temples were more interesting for gameplay than 2 disruptors, so i re-installed them
-corner expos dont have that weird entrance any more alone. now, they're easier accessable for the enemy from below in the rusty pit.
-former minonlies now are better to access from the pit due to a second ramp.
-the very center expansion was very hard to attack, and very hard to send troops to (like in ZvT vs a small mm force). so i decided to make it accessable from the center in a special way - an unbuildable path from each side. you can still make pylons/sunkens/turrets beside the gas in an R-point way to block it from units coming from the center. cool feature imo, i'll see if it works out.
-tightened the rusty pit in some aspects to encourage use in TvP/PvZ
-deleted some disturbing doodads and made the ToE gas at the island work properly.
Nightmarjoo
Tanks seem pretty strong in the map, not having yet watched the reps, are they not a problem? Because of the trenches virtually every expo can be hit by a tank where it cannot be immediately shot back at because or ramps and tank range. Although I spose storm and lurks can also do the same thing... seems like it might be hard for zerg to hold his bases? He might keep a base but lose all his drones quickly... there're no really safe bases, and no way to hide an expo... from the games did any of these concerns appear at all?
flothefreak
at the centerexpo, you can only hit one mineralline, but you cannot hit the gas or the nex/cc/hatch.

the expos next to this expo (on the sides of it, i'll call it side-center-expos) cant be shot from the inside expo. you could ONLY reach the comsat on the left base*

tanks can reach the natural mins, but you'll need an airunit to reveal it, or scan it all the time*
the same is for the side-center-expos

in addition, all those paths really help to move your armies quickly against terran.


*for tankability reasons and counter the strong tanks, neither the bottom corner expos, nor the side-center-expos has addon. so you're stuck with only two comsats, unless you get one of the unsafe expos in the middle of the map: center expo, northern center expo, island - all of them being insecure and hard to cover/grab as terran.

so i think ZvT and PvT will be okay, because lurk/dt get stronger, and terran has less knowledge of your army/troop movement and consistancy. plus, zerg has guardians as aggressive and effective option to beat terran - a tactic hardly working on normal maps nowadays. Because of the many paths and especially the open mainminerals of TW, guards can kill you, which you can also see in the ZvT rep vs antrax i uploaded.

all this together, terran isnt overwhelming as the mappicture might indicate.
modified by flothefreak
Nightmarjoo
Ah ok. Sounds reasonable to me, not having played it or taken the time to watch the replays yet :)

btw is that Antrax as in the Antrax-edge?


  
16
Replays


--wut)sQuadron vs wut)sheep(1on1, 1.13)
--CDS)PredY vs ToT)IncontroL((1on1, 1.13)
--PsychoSniper vs Eye-Noob(1on1, 1.13)
--Inept vs ScoutWFB(1on1, 1.14)
--Chus[S.A] vs Kobalt.org(1on1, 1.14)
--Kobalt.org vs Jonoman92(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs Kod)kussi((1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs Kod)kussi((1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs NastyMarine(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs NastyMarine(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs inocent24(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs yb.erox(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs myfm(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs pima(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs flawlessvictory(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs ?(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs iF.jonas(1on1, 1.14)
--scorn.on.ice vs antrax.on.ice(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs Antrax.On.Ice(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs jackgatt(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs neptune-eye(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs wan.zhul[pn](1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs phinow/e(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs scorn.on.ice(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs prezes(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs Antrax.On.Ice(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs Antrax.On.Ice(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs nb.toti(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs skillmilk100(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs Antrax.On.Ice(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs Antrax.On.Ice(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs Antrax.On.Ice(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs mih.check(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs DIE]anotherday[(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs sun.ban(1on1, 1.14)
--flothefreak vs neptune-eye(1on1, 1.14)

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