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Last update for (4)Svartalfaheim : 2006, 08, 20 01:23
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
1463 (4)Svartalfaheim 128*128spinesheath1.6beta

The map has been rated 36 times and got a total of 58 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


spinesheath
I guess it's best to update this post a little so that you don't have to read everything ;)

- All mineral patches 1500
- All geysirs 5000

This map provides a in-main expansion similar to Bladestorm/Dahlia. I'd say the in-main nat is a little harder to protect than the one on BS, and a little easier than the one on Dahlia.

The 2nd nat is placed in a very open area, a hatch there does not cover the choke.

Since these 3 bases (main, in-main nat, 2nd nat) are spread over a huge part of the map, early drops are very effective (believe me, a fast reaver drop can deal enourmous damage to a zerg that expanded twice; I suffered from one of these myself and I watched it in another game).

The minonlies can be walled on one side, this is especially meant for protoss in pvz, similar to the 12/6 expansions on R-Point. The other side usually faces your main base.

The middle actually is wider than it probably seems on the picture, it provides many alternative routes for flanking and surrounding.
modified by spinesheath
AiurZ
zealots dont really pose that much of an early threat to the zerg as much to say that the zerg *needs* to 3hatch in order to take its nat.

on top of that, its not as though it is impossible to defend from the bottom of the ramp while taking the outside natural, you simply need to be attentive and intercept zealots that are trying to run past your sunkens.
spinesheath
Already noticed that. I moved the ramps further to the middle, and shortened the distance between the bases with this, too. Was too far anyways and is still quite far. I'll see what I can do about that.

I also made the main bases smaller, they were way too large. Probably because this is my first map on a 19" screen :P Does not look good right now, and I might use the newly acquired space better, but it serves its purpose for now.

AiurZ
when i first switched from 17" to 19" the difference was huge. but usually during the process in which i make my maps i change the resolutions, and i make extensive use of the ingame resolution (or at least my lowest resolution, 800x600) so i can see how big things would appear in the game which lets me judge how open shit is and what not. so you might want to consider that if you already dont do it.
Nightmarjoo
gas issue, left and top geyser positions are relatively the same, but right and bottom are much slower, so either make the top and left positions on the bottom or right or vice versa; atleast at the mains

The raised jungle allows tanks to camp well, and for goons also, it might be hard to break a contain with units away from melee attacks on the raised jungle

There isn't much reason to go far from your base, you have a nat, but if you don't want to worry about defending it you can turtle in your main and take the other expo on the main cliff, then come out strong and take your nat, then move a bit to take your mineral only, way too many easily obtainable resources, and too much easily securable gas
spinesheath
Gas and mineral balancing will follow later. Didn't care about it yet. I bet I'll relocate the Starting positions at least once or twice.

How would the raised jungle allow for a strong contain? It is forming a line away from your base, so you can run in there without any problems. You can hide at the min onlies, and that's no threat at all.

Mineral/Gas balance is my main issue, yes. I also think that it is really a lot of them in your main/nat. But I think it still might turn out pretty well.

Lets consider 1n1 (2n2 is probably ok, and I don`t want to focus on it)
zvz, pvp, tvt balanced :P

tvp - early strong and rich exp for terran might cause problems. Thats why I reduced the gas amount to 2500. 2nd exp is _very_ open, and I might even make some unbuildable gruond infront of it. So t won't have as much gas as he wants. Idk how well mass vults can be played on this map, but since the main is pretty inaccessible, protoss should at least not suffer a lot from the exp inside. Assuming that I did a good job with the middle, there will be many possibilities for flanking, so p should be able to exp some more.

tvz - same problem with nat. Terran gains more from it. But the exps on low ground provide gas for z to hopefully balance it out. Might turn out to be a dropping war imo.

pvz - always hard to balance. Might be too much gas for zerg atm. Contain should not be much of a problem since the area infront of the main is pretty open. More of a problem is zerg's ground control. I tried to create an R-Point effect in the center so that zerg can't send its units from all directions, thus allowing for effective storming.

So far... Please give me some concrete suggestions (and reasons) on how many min blocks/geysirs and the amounts or resources each especially at the nat and 2nd exp.
Just saying "it'S too much" won't help.
Antares
well it seems another mapper stole my idea AGAIN ^^

so much minerals in the main woulds help mainly terran, cause he gain the minerals so muxh faster and can buy more vultures and marines and even tanks
the tight center also helps him

if he does a FE then he could mass up more and have a greater advantage earlier

and its the end of the theorycrafting :D it would be nice to see some replays

spinesheath
Stole? Umm^^ I came up with the same idea, if at all ;) Which map do you refer to? (Oh I'm so sorry^^)

The center is not tight. Try it out if you don't believe. It is limiting movement, but not tight. And since a terran army advaces fairly slow, it is easy to move around on one of the alternative routes and flank. Well, at least it shoud be^^ From what I played so far, it really leaves enough space even for huge armies.
Antares
actually vulture could also sneak that way and do some damage, i think if terran pushes out to the center you will never get him out there esepecially if there are islands

and i havent uploaded that map, it is also in beta stage and are tested
modified by Antares
spinesheath
Vulture damage should be limited since the important bases in pvt are on the mains and those are pretty secure in this aspect. Tanks can hit nats from below though. But I think I'll leave that, it seems fine to me. Might cause problems in tvz, though...

Islands... The raised jungle? I am planning to make the terrain unwalkable.
NastyMarine
Wow this map is very nice.

Thin out some of the raised jungle in the middle.. like Antares said: "i think if terran pushes out to the center you will never get him out there esepecially if there are islands"

that may be right

also there is the gas issue.. gas should always be directly to the left or above the start locations.

gw
spinesheath
If I reduce the space taken by the raised jungle, t can set up his tanks on the one side and control 2 routes at once. I probably will only make it so that he cannot drop tanks on that raised jungle, and maybe widen the whole middle a little. Would require some rearranging, but I certainly have enough space left :p
Antares
what about thin the raised jungle to be not walkable and fill the dropholes with critters?
spinesheath
So, now... Finally I managed to update the picture Oo

Well, I was just doing that while you posted it ;) But I didn't use critters (looks bad imo, and can be killed, which nullifies their purpose). I used some doodads where possible instead and blocked the remaining holes with the help of SCMD2's master tile palette. Will have to do that again, since I probably am not going to continue work from that version on TT

I also widened the whole center a little and made some minor changes throughout the map.
spinesheath
Hmm, do you think it would be a good idea to make the ramps unwallable? This would weaken terran a bit, especially in tvp so that the terran cannot expand with 1 fac siege and thus will either have to slow down tech or expansion...
At least I just spotted a really nice set of tiles that is high dirt and walkable but unbuildable. Those look just like normal high dirt, so people will wonder why it is unbuildable ;)
If you want to know which: You probably know the stone pillars. The top part of the pillars is a sprite, but the 2 tiles at the top are still unbuildable.
spinesheath
Umm, whoever rated my map 0 points, would you mind putting a comment to tell me why? Oo

That's just lol.


Uh, I should stop double posting :P And there should be more activity in here ;)

So, another update. Placed all main geysirs on top or left positions. Did test a lot for possible better solutions but after all, they were race specific...

Reduced gas amount at nat to 1000. Should help toss to get some temps/sair/dt and grades easier, while being too few to allow a 1-base style for zerg. I also moved 2 minblocks from the nat to the 2nd exp.
modified by spinesheath
NoPantsRepublic
My biggest concern is the main balancing. Purp has easiest time defending 1st nat from rushes (the one on highground). With blue its a little tougher, red alot harder, and teal its impossible. I'm not saying to make it wasier to defend, I'm saying to balance them out to however you see fit.

Other than that, it looks very nice and intersting; looks like a good 4 player map.
spinesheath
Well, ok, teals nat could be moved down a little, and red's a little to the top.
But apart from that, I think it's pretty much balanced through imbalances ;) Just think of how far purple has to move from his ramp to his nat to defend it against a drop/muta harass. Also, it's more exposed to fire from low ground than the other nats.

Oh and I forgot to mention that rushes don't pose a big threat on this map because the bases not very close to each other. Actually I was surprised of this at first, and I shortened the distances already, but that's a fact.

Edit: Ok, moved nats. Better now?
I also brought teals 2nd exp a little to the front so that you might cover both ramp and exp more effectively with one defense.

Now a 3-Point vote. The whole voting system is useless unless you leave a comment...

Edit: I removed the geysirs at the nats. (and some other details...)
I will upload 2 replays once I figure out how to. Please notice that you will need penguin plugin to watch them properly due to blizzards new patch...
They both are zvp, I am the zerg player. I do win both games, but both are pretty intensive games and the second one really could have turned against me. I also am quite probably the better player. Both games are no masterpieces, but the second one is really nice to watch, the protoss uses reavers and Dark Archons, so it's worth watching. You also can see my incredible unit mass control :p
Oh and I might work a little on the center. My enemy found it confusing. Though it is pretty, it caused me some trouble, too :)


Edit: Near completion now, I guess. I did the Terrain/Doodad decoration - nothing really fancy there, it is intended to feel familiar ingame anyways. Tell me if you don't like the looks of the decoration of some region or the overall style. Nothing that can't be changed!
I also filled all the dropholes - using SCMD2 where plain terrain or doodads were not enough. I am pretty sure I really filled all spots of at least the size of a tank. I think I was able to make it pretty enough, but feel free to tell me any issues on this, too.

That said, I can only encourage you to test it out. The games on it are fast paced, the ground battles are fierce and enourmous, but you can also play it semi-island style if you focus on drops and the high terrain. I mostly played pvz so far, and all the games were a lot of fun.
modified by spinesheath
lnept
my biggest concern is how this map is boring and these kind of maps are useless nowadays
NastyMarine
i think ur overdramatising it a bit.. tho the idea is necessarily original, the layout is quite nice and executed nicely
spinesheath
Just because I did not use any inverted ramps, mineral walls, 815 ramps, neutral buildings and stuff, it does not mean the map is boring. Play it or watch the replays and you'll see that it is the exact opposite.
How should these kind of maps be "useless nowadays"? Just go into battle.net and ask random people to play games on some new maps. Even if you find some, they will usually dislike "new style" maps. And it's not like that's only the random players. I never heard of any of the better players ask for unusual maps.
Actually, I think you guys here at bwmn are putting a little to much emphasis on "new" stuff... Come to think of it, the greatest and most beloved maps are all quite similar and oldschool.

It's nothing really new in there, but I do believe it's a well done composition of known elements.
Play it.
boongee
I didn't read the comments on this page but I'm just going to say that the naturals are way too excessive. This map encourages turtling which isn't really fun to play against.
spinesheath
Turtling on a map with many resources is just plain stupid. Your enemy will go for 8 expansions and 50 stargates or whatever.

By the way, the naturals are 6 minblocks and no gas. The second nat with 7/1 is not more than on any other map, and with all the money you have to waste to turtle there (come to think of it, the entrance is as wide as your main), your enemy will expand twice and overrun your defenses.
I will point out Bladestorm as an example: Both nats on blade are easier to secure. Minonly is behind your base, whereas on my map it is exposed to air attacks and drops. Gas natural on Blade has a much tighter choke, and actually there is no choke on my map.
modified by spinesheath
lnept
This post is not displayed due to its content
spinesheath
Did some slight modifications:

- gas at in-main nat: 1000 (toss-favoring position)
- gas at 2nd nat: 4000
- all expansions 6 min blocks

- slightly reduced distances between bases

Terrain is still not perfect, but nice already.
The layout of the middle might still cnange, though I am quite pleased with it as it is.
Antares
i am still worried about the middle, the expansion layout is already good though
spinesheath
Hmm I thought I already fixed mineral balance (there should be less than 5% difference now), but there is a little pathfinding bug for harvesters on the bottom position. Will fix that soon.
I hear different opinions about the gas at the in-main expansions all the time :D We'll see what turns out to be the best ;)

Well, the few tvp games I played so far did not involve any real pushes, so I can't really prove anything yet...
Actually, you really should try playing it ;)

Edit:
Fixed mineral placement (tell me if I missed anything)

modified by spinesheath
Frank-Terrorist
OK... I think TvT on this map with two adjacent players would favour the one who is COUNTER-CLOCKWISE of the other. Say you're playing TvT, 12 vs 3. 12 can put a few tanks on the cliff right of his ramp, and easily gets a big advantage with his tank push. 3 would have a harder time defending his nat, and 12 would have no problem pushing out past his mins-only exp in the middle. From there, he doesn't have very far to go before he's taking shots at 3's gas at his nat.

A lot of 90 degree rotationally-symmetric maps have this kind of clockwise/counter-clockwise balancing issue.

And teal's in-base min-only exp is going to be nearly impossible to defend against an early rush. A fast expansion to the in-base mins-only is very viable for the other 3 bases, but definitely not for teal.

The central mins-only exps look faster for purp, red, and blue than they do for teal. I think one of the clusters in teal's should come a little closer.
spinesheath
I totally agree ;)

The slower minonly is a nice finding, but actually you can't tell the mining speed from just looking at a picture. Mineral mining speed can't really be juged any other way than by testing, workers do not always travel 1 square in x seconds. This is what causes the gas issue, btw.

The rotation-symmetry does matter in almost any matchup on this map. That's simply true. but you have to live with that, actually similar issues are present on almost all maps. And you can certainly use that symmetry to your favor again, for example it is a lot easier to drop a clockwise positioned main (early goliath drop for example) than it is counter-clockwise.
Replays


--DA]spinesheath vs mmmhyeah(1on1, 1.13)
--DA]spinesheath vs sToNeD-sTYlEr(1on1, 1.13)

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