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Last update for (4)White Lies : 2006, 03, 21 18:13
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
201 (4)White Lies 128*128Listoric1.2final

The map has been rated 60 times and got a total of 70 points


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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)

This map is exactly the same as the on ein the ESGL-Mappack atm.

This map offers every classic aspects of a Starcraft map, plus small changes.

The cliffs next to the Natrual Expansions are "walkable". It`s easier to defend or attack that way. Even Canons built with the scout-probe work well.

Some said they`re too much expansion possibilities, i say it add's variation to the gameplay.

For Terran it`s not easy to push, but it`s easier to drop anyway, it`s enough space to unload every unit and even surprise your enemy with several nice Tankdrop possibilities.

That's enough for now, hf,

terran port vs toss is creatively balanced on this map. it's not removed (like in many maps) but it's not as strong as it is on LT. i like this (+)

the naturals look way too hard for toss to defend with photons, so z>p. (-)

the nats also may be hard for zerg to hold vs terran, so zerg has a weaker early game, probably t>z (-).

there are more gas expands than LT, so this makes zerg late game come quicker. zerg is advantaged in this way, so this makes the z>p stronger (-), but the t>z aspect "interesting" (+)

i like the flanking/pushing layout a lot. it's interesting and not blatantly unfair, of course i'm not the best player to judge it, but i've seen much worse, so (+)

the 2nd nat mineral onlies are in nice spots, reflecting a god overall design that works together (+)

the extra mineral onlies and the island mineral onlies would only be useful in some races and would be overkill with minerals. they don't help toss's initial problem of getting an expo vs zerg (a 2nd geyser). the depth added by a toss being able to take an island geyser is not present. terran taking any of these would be overkill, as would zerg. so i guess i have to go with a (-) for these.

beauty. the map doesn't do any of the typically ugly things people do or fail to do with maps, but overall i don't think it achieves a good look, which is difficult to do on this tileset, but you chose it, so hey. i would probably go with more snow on lower ground, with just the sides and middle and bases "dirty" having high and low ground using dirt/grass on this tilset is confusing because they look so similar. the water is in a good place but something should compliment the transition more. (-)

rating: +4 -5
wow, that`s what a real comment should look like. Very informative, i'm impressed :)

If i shorten your comment, it`s like:

TvP = ~ even
TvZ = early T>Z, middle T=Z, late T ~ even
ZvP = Z>P

I partly agree on that.

In beta stadium, the map offered two islands with gas, on 3 and 9 o'clock (where the bridge min-onlys are now) but after some discussion i decided to change it. If there where these islands now, you wouldn`t have two ways to the mineral only, which would have made it easier for T to defend this position, and a bit imbalanced in any T game then. On the other side the P or Z would have taken the Island and even it out, with the extra gas. But i`d say that it`s easier for T to defend or kill an island, so again T > P or Z then. It`s hard to decide how to balance a map, and to quote you (roughly): "You can't balance all three races, you have to decide what matchup should be a bit imbalanced to balance the others".

In early game Z takes it's natural to cover it`s choke, but it's a bit harder to defend the choke with sunkens, because it's enough space to walk around. The same reason P can't defend his expansion with canons only. So i'd say it`s Z=P in early game.

Then it depends, if it`s a 1on1, i`d say Z>P because of Mutalisks and Z taking every gas startpoint. While P has a hard time to defend every expansion. On 2on2 i`d say P>Z because, what i know through testing, P is better on short distances. And as the game continues, the distances between every important expansion (Main - Natural - Min-Only - MiddleGasExpansion) shrinks, every minute the game takes time, it`s a (+) for P. But on the other hand Z doesn`t need the gas in lategame, and can claim more min-onlies to evolve cracklings, so it evens it out again :/

My conclusion to this: Z>P, but you can handle the difference through taking min-onlys and build canons + zealots to prevent the Z of beeing overpowered.

Think so too?
i like those min only bridged areas. i am tempted to say you should try taking out the other mineral onlies and leaving those. terran don't need that many minerals to min, and if they do, making them go a little farther and fighting over it seems cool. toss could probably take those easier than the current "true 2nd nats" anyways. so i'm glad you didn't change these into islands. maybe you should take out the 4 mineral onlies and just leave these 2.

as for making the other islands gas naturals, i don't think this favors T because if a T takes it early game he's not doing much anywhere else. and your islands do look much easier to attack than typical islands. i think having these as gas bases could make for interesting games. you could try to make the gas vulnerable from land -- but it might be better to do the opposite so that the slands are useful for toss vs zerg. it's a less important matter, but i think even if you give them gas, they will be a novelty coming up in cute and exciting although occasional games. mineral only islands are almost filler. these islands are more interesting because they are harder to defend and somewhat attack a main (you can push from them into a main). i like this, so i like your current islands plus gas (that can't be lurkered from ground).

as for zvp early game, the problem is that toss's expansion is weaker here than on LT, where zerg already has the advantage. either make the distances shorter so toss is stronger vs zerg -- but not too strong -- or make the naturals more reasonably defended with less photons (at least as easy as it is on LT, for starters).

making toss unable to defend their natural with cannons only does not even out with zerg unable to defend with sunkens! toss have to be able to take their natural more easily or zerg will contain them and take the map every time. zerg's natural against toss never relies on static defense. zerg make enough lings to scare the toss back and stop probe scouting and then move into whatever their strategy is. usually that strategy involves slowing down toss's expansion while zerg takes the map and techs to hive or goes for a sooner kill against a mistaken expansion or tech. so if you make toss have a hard time defending their expo, zerg just wins, way harder than on LT. way less acceptable than LT's zvp, which is probably LT's least balanced matchup from the most positions.
After you last post, i really think of update the map to a newer version. Thx a lot. I`m coming up with a new version if i got time making it.

--LGI vs hot_bullet(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI, naTco vs Integral, Ice123(2on2, 1.13)

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