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Last update for (4)Ryleh : 2007, 03, 01 03:04
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
2021 (4)Ryleh 128*128Lancet0.2beta

The map has been rated 33 times and got a total of 7 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


Lancet
The mains have 3 chokes but one of them is blocked by three 16 point minerals and the other by a 2000 HP neutral building. The open choke leads into the a nat containing minerals and gas. Within the main is a elevated mineral-only nat. Large ramps lead into the city which has a mineral and gas expo east and west protected by dwebs behind the minerals and the sides (not all the dwebs show in the picture). Six corridors created by six masive temples lead to the center of the city, which has a series of dwebs. The center also has a mixture of high ground and low ground ruins. The aproximate location of the low ground patches are marked by posts (18 total).

Many offensive and defensive scenarios are possible including destroying the neutral building, removing the small mineral patches or dropping on the mineral-only nat to attack the main. The corridors along the center of the map and multiple exits from the main can allow one army to flank the other and attack from multiple directions. Drops on the central temples can also be used to control the corridors.

The map is inspired by a story by Lovercraft (The Call of Cthulhu) that features a city (R'yleh) of bizarre geometry where one of the "ancient ones" awaits the moment when he will rise and take over the world.
RaDiX
Way too open... Goodbye terran!
Lancet
Radix, well.... the corridors within the center are certainly not "way too open", in fact when I made the map I was certain that pleople would criticize it is too "tight". If you mean the space coming down from the ramp into the nats I can place some obstacles there. However, like I wrote above, there are 3 exits from the main. All you need to do is mine the "16" minerals or destroy the neutral buildings. Also, an army stationed at the top of the ramp is vulnerable to fire from tanks dropped on the temples.

Also, let me make something clear, I don't think a map HAS to be balanced and that this should be held up as the gold standard of "map perfection". In fact in matches I think players should play at least one map considered to be unfavourable to their race and favorable to their opponent's race. I think this missguided search for "balance" results in the berating of many great (and fun) maps.
modified by Lancet
spinesheath
Actually, terran will rule on this map if it's top vs top or bottom vs bottom. Reasons should be clear. Any other mu will most likely result in a total rape of the terran. There is nothing a terran gains from tight corridors if the enemy can just go around them and attack the unbelievably open natural.

I don't like this map bacause of the completely unnecessary use of neutral buildings all over the map, and that huge custom ramp. Also the fact that horizontal gameplay is so absolutely different from vertical/diagonal.
Also, do my eyes fool me, or are those invalidly placed minerals?

Well, and your custom terrain ain't perfect either...
modified by spinesheath
Lancet
OK, so I gather you guys don't like the "open Nat" so I will work on making it less open (although many good maps have open nats). Invalid minerals? I have played the comp a few times in several positions and I have been able to mine the minerals OK. Neutral building are not used "all over the map" just North and South (a total of 4) the neutral buildings on top of the temples are decorative and irrelevant.

The reasons Terran will "rule" on this map are not clear to me (or to Radix for that matter). The fact that vertical/horizontal gameplay is different from diagonal (you caught on didn't you) is exiciting and a plus for the map.

Also you wrote:

"There is nothing a terran gains from tight corridors if the enemy can just go around them and attack the unbelievably open natural."

Of course, if I change the map so that the enemy can't go around the corridors, the map will be criticized for favoring terran (LOL). You just have to scout and keep track of where your enemy is going (plus you can drop on buildings).

As to the custom terrain, I know it is not perfect even though I worked for many days trying to make it better. I will work some more on it after the major issues are resolved.
spinesheath
"...and irrelevant."
That's exactly what I don't like about those neutral buildings on the temples.

horizontal gameplay is different from vertical+diagonal, don't mix that up. And different with the meaning that t on horizontal = win, and t on other = loss.

Why t ownz on horizontal positions: Block your choke, get some marines to save the other entrances, get your minonly and then push through the small corridor right into the enemy's main. An additional dropship will get you the minonly in the other player's main. From there it shouldn't be much of a problem to kill your enemy.
Vs zerg this will be much easier than vs p (gas), but even vs p you shouldn't be in trouble.

And no, it's not "exciting and a plus for the map". When you win or lose a game because you are here and your enemy is there, we call that positional imbalance.
Lancet
Spinesheath, you really should factor into your reasoning that, most of the time, your enemy will not be naive and also many will tell you that in positions where the mains are close to each other, zerg have the upper hand due to their ability to rapidly produce units. Besides, in no map is there a "formula" for winning.

So for example:

"get some marines to save the other entrances"

but these are marines that will not be attacking (time, time, time)

"push through the small corridor right into the enemy's main"

Wow that simple? And as you reach the main and start hitting the enemy's sunkens: 1) two or three control groups of lings unburrow behind your units and wipe you out 2) lings and lurks descend from the city high ground and enter your main or wipe out your nat 3) mutalisks invade your base 4) the enmy drops on you etc, etc etc.

As to the neutrals atop the temples, it's part of the decoration and also the fact that they have this beautiful whirling field squares perfectly with the theme of the map.

I have, however, added more khaydarin crystal formations and trees to the nat and I have uploaded the map and the picture. The "unbelievably open" nat is no more.


modified by Lancet
modified by Lancet
spinesheath
lolz. I'm not interested in arguing on that level...
boongee
yeah it sounds like lancet doesn't really play starcraft
Lancet
Well....you can say I am not a good player, and that would be accurate. But I as sure as heck have seen enough pro-replays and pro-maps to allow me to tell you that Terran does not own horizontal positions. But hey, this forum is about giving people helpful (and polite) advice about their maps, let's keep it that way. You didn't like the open nat and I have made the nat less open. What else would you like to see changed in the map? Do you think I should block the west/east corridors north and south to force gameplay into the center? Do you think I should elliminate the extra entrance to the nat blocked by neutral buildings? Can you guys argue at "that" level?
Nightmarjoo
1. That building blocking the main choke has 800 hp not 2000

2. t>z easy since there are three chokes, if you take your inbase nat you defend 0 chokes, possibly the one behind it a little, if you take your gasnat you defend 1, this leaves 2 openings for the first marines made to enter lol and forcing z to turtle in his main is rediculous, you wouldn't have adequet lings in time without crippling your economy, z rushing would hurt z more than t as t has no problem turtling in his main.

z>p imo since z can use the three entrances better than p can I think. Protoss couldn't realisticly take his gasnat without like cannoning his other two chokes, = z has more gas = rape.

to say t>p horiz pos would be very unrealistic. Terran would have trouble getting his first tank with such short distances because of the neutral choke, 800 hp will go down in 40 goon hits correct? And p could easily afford to use probes as well; t has no chance unless p somehow fails to win in the early game, if t survives without being crippled, then it would be very easy for t to push into p's base, at the same time it would be hard imo to defend three chokes even with turtling, p would still win.
vert pos t could not imo defend three chokes; this map is micro oriented not macro, t would have trouble matching p's production with 1base.

FEing is not a viable strat in this map in any mu imo.

3. Neutrals/mineral walls/placement of the two elements = 0 pathing, which can never be a good thing.

4. If the nat was the only choke the nat would still be hard to defend zvt I believe.

Those neutrals on the platforms are purely useless, looks like you caught grig-syndrome.

The mineral formations are very unattractive, there is also little room for turret/cannon building near the minerals imo.

I actually like the big ramp, I just wish the middle wasn't useless. The inbase mineral only along with the fact that the only non-nat expos are on the sides results in 0 need to use the middle. I suggest killing the neutral main choke, and either having a 2nd main choke or 2 chokes to the nat, having both makes zvt hard as hell. I would rather the E/W expos were gone and the middle given some expos/made usefull. Those dwebs won't do much if they don't use the middle lol. I also suggest making less boring mineral block counts, ie not having so many; the nat and main formations really need redone as well.
Nightmarjoo
oh you made your last comment as I was typing mine. I think I answer your questions there.
LostTampon
hmmm... i would suggest to replace the power generators with building with more hp... zerg has to build sunkens on 2 different spots;
have you tested pathing? will gates placed behind those minwalls fuck up pathing?
mayb you could place some dwebs in the gaps between the horizontal positions so that its not too easy to camp there :P
Lancet
OK, thanks, that is more like it. Let me think about it and work on it.
Lancet
OK, I introduced islands north and south. Horizontal access by the side is blocked by one protoss temple and vertical access by the side by two (each temple is 1500 HP), which will make the center more relevant. Geysers in the main and nat are 4000. Nat is shielded from the large ramp by some khandaryn mineral formations and trees. There is a mineral-only expansion right next to the nat but it is right next to a cliff so it is very vulnerable. The neutral buildings atop the high temples stay, they fit perfectly with the theme of the map and they are beautiful.
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