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Last update for (2)Lost Soul : 2007, 12, 31 12:06
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
2223 (2)Lost Soul 96*96ptar4.4beta

The map has been rated 53 times and got a total of 232 points
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Comments:   GMCS (5 elements)


ptar
Hey, my second map in 96x96 style.

Nothing really special, only the geysers in the middle expansions have 3000 gas.

I think that terran will have an advantage, but what do you think???

Thx for comments / suggestions.
modified by ptar
Alter.Ego
chokes are pretty far from the starting location. not sure if it's bad, just looks far.
The gas gaysers of the bottom part of the map are all placed at the bottom, which is considered bad :) there is an article named 'gas issue', you might want to read it.

Looks terranish.. but we'll see.. I need to play some games against human terran to say.
ptar
Yeah Alter.Ego, i know that, but when i move the geysers over the cc, nexus or hatchery, then you can hit the geyser easier. and i think this is more imbalanced.
Hope you will have great games^^.
modified by ptar
lnept
too much cash...subtract like 3 minerals from each expo and it will be much more balanced.
ptar
Thx for uploading the replay. I only uploaded this map for one hour and now i've got a replay. Thx man!
Alter.Ego
the main choke still seems too far, the terran didn't even try to wall it.
Funny is there is planty of room for coordinated flanking, so I don't think it's terran favouring.
(Problem is I can't use it really well, duh.)

Resources are plenty, but aside of the main/nat - hard to defend.. at least IMO.

Most important thing about the map - it's fun to play :-)

p.s.
Just having spare time and some ppl on bnet willing to join 'new map - you terran' :)
modified by Alter.Ego
Alter.Ego
What do you think of making the mains smaller, moving the nats closer to them, and changing the 5 and 11 minonlies to raised jungle islands?

that with gas, and narrowing the ammount of minerals in the other expos as was suggested
modified by Alter.Ego
Testbug
what about switching the choke to 8 o'clock and 2 o'click to the 9 and 3 expos instead of 12 and 6, that will make the choke closer.

an all that raised jungle is terrain wasted, make 9 and 3 dropable (in the rise jungle) and make the wasted terrain a rised jungles island line the lost temple things.

if you do that, you will be able to change the 12 and 6 mineral fleids direction to top and bottom that can be attacked from inside main mines.

doesn't the center looks like Eden?
and too much wandering in your mineral formations, the high ground formations are ok.
ptar
First of all thx Alter.Ego for playing me. I will change the dropable cliff behind the natural. Maybe i make move the Main choke forward. Testbug, i've got the mineral lines from Arden and Nasty Marine.
I think they are Ok. The highground minerals are these from Hitchhiker in the corners. The idea of making the middle is from a korean map, not from Eden. But it looks afterwards very different, not like the korean map.
Any other suggestions???
Alter.Ego
Ya know, I really like Testbug's idea. It will shift the map maybe too much from your original idea, but I say give it a try and let's test what happens

Another thing - make just a little more room behind the expands/nats minerals, one of the scvs got stuck badly after building a turret
modified by Alter.Ego
ptar
Yeah, i might do that, but it will take some time.
Thinking of it tomorrow.

Edit: The second replay:
I'm the zerg player.
modified by ptar
Nightmarjoo
Actually I rather like this. imo it is more important to address the gas issue in this case than to worry about vulnerability. I think the lowground mineral onlys maybe should be removed, and some minerals added to the highground expos and the gas removed. Just a suggestion, but imo there is too much money on the map. The nat gas is fine the way it is, it's the main's gas that is the problem mostly. The choke is rather far from the sl, maybe move the sl a little closer, would leave more room behind the minerals too. The lowground mineral onlys are pretty t favouring imo, tanks can easily shoot that from various holes and cliffs. Removing it would clear up some room, reduce the money on the map, and take away an expo which might not have been used.

Maybe decorate the map a little more?^^ I see a lot of blank green :)

For testing, anytime after 3 pm EST (22 CET?) should be good for me on any day, my aim is The64man, msn is Nightmarjoo@hotmail.com. I doubt I'll be active on bnet at all lately, so either through bwm or aim/msn would be the best way to grab me for some games.
lnept
as I said before, remove 3 minerals from every expo and it will be more balanced.
ptar
Yeah, but when i remove 3 minerals at each expansion, they look so empty :(
Maybe, i reduce the among of the minerals. Lets see.
NastyMarine
i like your execution and general layout, though the mains are very very big, and TK does this type of layout alot in his jungle maps, so it feels like a mirror image :/

but nice map
Nightmarjoo
nonono Nasty, look at my one 96x96 map, the mains aren't actually large, they are normal size, but in a smaller map.
ptar
I made a lot of changes and wanted to take care of all your suggestions.

Edit:
Moved the geyser at the Blue Main and the 9 expansion over the CC, Nexus or Hatchery

Change the mineral value:
Natural: 1x 500 5x 1500
Min Only: 2x 500 2x 750 1x 1000 1x 1500
9 , 3 Exp. 1x 500 1x 750 1x 1000 3x 1500
Middle Exp. 2x 750 4x 1500 Gas: 3000

Also i changed the choke, so you can wall in with
one barrack. I changed the map like Testbug said, but this changed the idea of the map a lot, so i decided to take the old style.

Changed the cliffs behind the Naturals and Min onlys so you can't drop.
Hope the changes are ok, tell me if not^^.

PS: Nightmarjoo, i couldn't decorate it more :).
I think the sexyness of the map will be hit to hard ;).
modified by ptar
modified by ptar
Alter.Ego
Ymmm did you upload the changed picture? cos the mineral lines in the middle still need some space behind them :)

Edit:

Added gmcs from basic tests with staredit.

The main still looks a bit huge IMO, but the one rax block entrance is a good change.

I would love to see the corners with island expands as in LT.

um.. change the players to be random with random locations.
modified by Alter.Ego
ptar
Alter.Ego, the map is not final. I will change the space behind the minerals. Just wait a bit ^^.
Maybe, i move the Minerals in the main nearer to the entrace. But i'm not sure about it. Suggestions???
I'm not a fan of island expos ;) I think i don't do them. Don't know what you mean with change the random locations for the players??? I played a few games and started on both locations. Yeah, i made 9 and 3 expo dropable. Do you think this is to imba?
Thx for the help Alter.Ego.

Made another Edit: Put the minerals in the mid expo forward, so you can built Turrets. (Made for Alter.Ego^^) Made the 9 and 3 expo undropeble.
modified by ptar
Alter.Ego
I meant the races, sorry, when you start the game you start with 'terran' and second player with 'zerg' :-) Nothing biggie, but I think it should be random.

The changes are lovely and i think that you will benefit if you move the main minerals closer to the entrance.. don't really see a problem with that, but the experienced mappers will tell for sure.

The 9 and 3 expos are fine, they're droppable on the low ground, which can be built off with turrets/cannons/colonies, there is a spot in the 3 expo on the raised jungle where a tank can fit btw :_) just above the top mineral. It can be used for defending of course, so I dunno, either create such spot for the other expo, or remove that one as well.

edit:

The map is pretty fun for play and i think all your imba concernes about terran were proven wrong :-)
modified by Alter.Ego
ptar
Ok, i changed the spot at the 3 o'clock expo.
Don't know how to change the players. :(
Thanks for playing the map and the great suggestions.
modified by ptar
Alter.Ego


No space for comsat/nuke on that expo (that's the left one in the center) there is a single tile that messes this up - easy fix :)
modified by Alter.Ego
ptar
Ohh, i didn't see that. Will fix it.

!!!FIXED!!!

modified by ptar
Alter.Ego
The last replay was pretty educational :)

anyway, here are my thoughts - the mains are way too big which makes drops a real problem. This might be just a specific feature of the map of course.
IMO - if you open up the center in expense for the main's sizes it might be more fun.
flothefreak
you can never deny a drop, this has not much to do with mainbasesize (only if you want to pay too many minerals on defensive buildings). but as mains are very large, you should think about reducing them to gain room for the center.
ptar
I was thinking of making the mains smaller and gain more room for the center. But when i do this, the middle isn't that much bigger, only a little bit.
If i reduce the main more there isn't enough space for buildings anymore. If i put the minerals nearer to the entrance, they are more harassable. Also i think the 1 Barrack-build-in is enough.
Look at Tau cross, if you have problems with drops.
These mains are very big espacilly the 6 o'clock one.You can counter a drop with 4-5 Turrets on Lost Soul. This isn't a problem i think and not so expensive.
The middle is a little bit tiny, but you can move your units several ways around and over it. There for you need some micro, but probably everybody can handle this, i think.
One last question:
Do you mean the distance between the sl to the natural is too long, or is there too much building space???


modified by ptar
ptar
Changes:
-Moved the minerals in the mains nearer to the choke
-More space in the middle of the map
-Resized mainbases
Testbug
8 o'clock can be attacked from ramp, that expo looks like a headache for protoss, 2 o'clock is not that near, but the problem is units walking from NW minonly to 8 o'clock, SCVs will stop because units walking there, and the gass makes it too tight, what's all that staff at SE? looks like copy paste, can you make it some beautifull?
wait, let me test something, BRB

EDIT:
what i guessed, red gass can be attacked from the other side of the raised ungle.

NE copy-paste rised jungle is ok, but SE was wrong, red has a perfect gass thing and all the expos has diferent gass speed, i don't know about gass isue but i try to make the 2 players balanced.
the center is hot, very nice big war area but what about some other 2 doodads near the pidamid thing.

and your main bases were very bored :$
you need some decoration.
i recomend you to pick up the square brush thing and place some rocky groud at the bottom of the ramps and high ground thing.
modified by Testbug
ptar
I'm not finished with decorating it. It is still beta and i'm only testing gamplay and positional imbalances. Do you mean the red or the blue geyser??? Cuz the red geyser is at the top of the map and can't be hit. I'm a little bit iritated.
Will move the 9 o'clock expansion, so that the geyer can't be hit.

!Update comming soon!
ptar
I have a problem. I can't change the position of the expo at 9. It can be always hit from the highground.
When i move the geyser to the bottom, then all of you are talking from the gas issue. What is less imba???? Pls help.
flothefreak
only look for gas issue at the mainbases. in early game, this gas is the most important, and it is crucial for how fast your tech is/how many gas units you have at the beginning.

gases at naturals or other expansions dont necessarily need a optimum of gas placement:
here is positional balance much more important (imagine a zerg fast expansion - one position with a safe gas, another position with a VERY exposed gas! this creates an striking positional imbalance) while the gas issue difference becomes weaker and weaker the longer the game is running. (more units later on, and 1 additional drone on the gas/a small amount less gas dont matter so much)
testbug
oh sorry, i mean the blue one.
blue gass can be attacked from behind the rised jungle.

NorthWest R.jungle is hot, but SouthEast was bad copy/paste, i guess you can fix it.

2 o'clock gass it facing the raised jungle, why don't you make the 8 o'clock facing its rised jungle too?

look, the blue gass it faster than the red one, move the blue down so it mines slower and can't be attacked from the other side of the rised jungle.

11 o'clock is also faster than 5, move the 11 so it is not exactly at top of the expo.
i love your center but is looks some empty?
ptar
Changes:
-Changed the location of the 9 o'clock expansion
-Changed mineral lines in the mains
-Changed the terrain in the mains and naturals

There isn't enough space in the middle to put doodads there testbug. There are a lot of Trees and bushes so i think this is enough. What do you mean with bad cut/copy/past???
Testbug
GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!
i uploaded a replay!!!!!!!
watch it carefully
version 1.15.0

the blue (south) geyser CAN BE ATTACKED behind the rised jungle!

look what i lift my barracks, that copy/paste rised jungle is OK, but the other (south east) is very bad, you copy/paste the bad thing. fix it.

and look, at south a tank can be dropped and kill both expos workers (no1 can be droped there if a tank is already using that walkable terrain) there a time where zerg don't have air units, and protoss won't be able to drop a zealot there, dragoons dange can't hit the thank.

watch the replay
flothefreak
tankdropspots must ALWAYS be tested, ptar. this one here seems to be even more crucial than old LT's 9oclock lowgroundspot.
ptar
Ok watched the replay.Of course i will change it.
Flo i tested the map for tankdrops, but i have not seen this one. Changes coming soon.
!!! FIXED !!!
- Changed the cut/copy/past tiles. (Hope looks better now)
- Changed the dropspot for tanks
- Now you can't hit the geyser

modified by ptar
Alter.Ego
I think that last few drop spots appeared after the first cleanup and the main size changes.
ptar
Cuz i edited the terrain blues base couldn't be walled in with one barrack. Changed this now.
modified by ptar
ptar
Sorry uploaded the same replay twice. Can i delete it ??
modified by ptar
Alter.Ego
Hm, the space behind the minerals in the red and blue is different. Blue's is pretty much bigger.
ptar
Does this realy matter? Otherwise i change it.
flothefreak
nah not really. if it was a little space and NO space at all it would - but the difference here is not much, and not as striking.
ptar
If you want to watch the replay : G.Star vs Raynor 2.0 you need the following AI to watch the replay corectly.
http://www.entropyzero.org/BWAI.rar
flothefreak
dont upload game vs cpu, they're entirely useless
ptar
Yeah i know, but did you watch it???
I think there you can see alot of the map, like CC lifting ,wall-in and so on. Also this AI isn't that bad. Lancet played this AI too and uplaoded the replay.
modified by ptar
flothefreak
wall-in and stuff should be on YOUR test. the AI isnt acting like a human at all, the most part of it is that it gets loads of cash for free. you'll never see against it if a zerg (human) can resist rush, or if he would need too much sunks at the nat and so on.

i wont argue, it's actually no doubt that AI games dont work out for balancing questions, because they dont act like human.
ptar
I thought, we have to upload replays, wich show something of the map. Oo
This AI doesn't get free money. Of course it doesn't play like a human. I only thought maybe someone is interested in it.
Nightmarjoo
Hmm the mineral only has the same amount of money as the highground expo and the nat, and being that it has no gas, it is largely useless. Perhaps make it 7 and the highground 5?

I disagree with flo about the room behind the mains, it should be equal, especially on a smaller map like this where things are closer to eachother, that closerness can be a big difference in running back and forth etc. Also I would move the sls away from the top/bottom edge.
4 geysers in a 96x96 map? I suggest taking out atleast one of them, and probably the highground one. If you do that, you could still make it 5 blocks and the lowground mineral only 7 still, the highground one already covers a much more crucial strategic position.
flothefreak
it is about as important as the difference on corner-gas-mining-differences. choose your way.
ptar
Joel, the geysers aren't full of gas. I gonna change the minerals in the main. Maybe i will edit the expansion layout. I'm going to pimp Outpost too. I've got next week holidays and i'm going too pimp all my maps as good as i can.

Nightmarjoo
cool^^

Raichu, I choose you!
ptar
Ok, finally i'm going to pimp this map. Started already with adding 2 new ramps at the highground expos. I will overdo the whole deco ( because now I'm a lil bit better in it ^^) . Other changes i should do?
LML
low minerals.. 7 in main and 6 at nat, as sucky as Survivor in that way.
I would say Z>P due to this.
ptar
I have added only 7 mins in the main and 6 at the natural, because there are so much minerals on the map. Also players are forced to take the min only if they run out of minerals.
ProTosS4EveR
Ruins are ugly. :P
ptar
i know ^^, thats why i'm going to change the deco.

Ok changed them. Hope they are looking better.
modified by ptar
Alter.Ego
still haven't made the distance from edge of map to minerals equal eh?:)
LML
but those low minerals are a disadvantage for the expensive protoss in the early game, and an advantage for those cheap zergs, over the protoss, ever thought bout that? balancing is important!
lnept
its a small map so its not like zerg can expand everywhere, thats why its necesarry -_-
Testbug

modified by Testbug
ptar
nice comment testbug :)
Ok, i will change the distance from the edge of the map to the minerals when i'm ready with the other deco. I won't change amount of minerals in the main and natural.
ProTosS4EveR
Really better ruines. :]
Starparty
vnice
ptar
Ok, changed the decoration of the mains. I have chosen another mineral formation. Pls tell me, if the min formation is better than before. thx :)
ProTosS4EveR
Ooooh!!! Gas issue!
Crackling
even a very big ones (southern player got fucked up twice, main+nat)
ptar
Natural isn't that important, btw i haven't edited them yet. Only mains + middle highround. I will change the main formation. thx for the advice.
ptar
K Uplaoded the latest version.
Testbug
small ramps ar 10 and 4 are not really necesary
ptar
But i like them ^^. I wanted to test those ramps for a long time now and i think they are placed well. It's easier to attack the highround expos now.
ptar
Made new updates:
-Added some more doodads
-Moved the min only nearer to the choke
-Changed the value of the minerlas and gas:

Main: 1x 650 1x 600 6x 1500 gas 5000
Nat : 2x 600 1x 1000 3x 1500 gas 3000
highground: 2x 600 1x 1000 1x 1300 2x 1500 gas 2500
8 and 2 : 1x 600 1x 650 1x 1000 3x 1500 gas 4000
min only: 2x 500 2x 750 1x 1000 1x 1500
ProTosS4EveR
You can put blue's gas at top because the mineral formation looks strange or blue.
ptar
!!!added obs version!!!
Testbug
you forgot the rocky ground at the bottom of the wide ramps
ptar
^^ not all deco done yet.
flothefreak
i like the map, and your deco (and pic editing ;) ) skills are at our high standards now.
but i would make the center hill some more accessible: what do you think about standard-sized ramps on the spots i marked in GMCS? i think your map will profit of this.
and i look forward playtesting this map with you, for sure! great map&concept
Nightmarjoo
I already came up with what imo would improve the map the best, but ptar didn't like it. I'll make my edit on the map soon.
ptar
I was thinking of adding some ramps there. ^^
Joel, as i explained to you, ur ideas are to big. It'll change the whole map. Looking forward to see your version :)
Nightmarjoo
Well I never finished it, but before I forget again (randomly recalled it), here's what I had done to the map:

modified by ptar
Testbug
lol
Testbug
well my recomendations is to use square rocky grounds near your dired mud, so low ground is not that buildable.
speccialy in the choke and the choke wide ramps.
you won't be able to place rocky ground in the 9 and 3 ramps because you have a multy there...
Testbug
i'll GMCS
Testbug
lol, blue can be muta harased
FateD
well, i say we let master nightmarjoo do the changes, he already have a good start into it... :D

he knows what hes doing anyway... :D
modified by FateD
ptar
Sry, but i won't let him do the changes. This was the first map i worked on for hours and days. Better a crap map of mine then a pimped map from another one :(
Testbug
what????? master what??? LOL

ptar what about my changes?
FateD
man, you guys cant take jokes :( lol
ptar
Currently i'm playing and editing Arctic. After I'll finish this, i'll try to do your suggestions Testbug. Kinda thought your post was a joke FateD :) I just wanted to say this, cuz so many people wanted to pimp it already, or change the whole gameplay and concept xD.
modified by ptar
Testbug
fuckkkk there are 973 billions of tank spots :S
ptar
lol, will fix them all.
FateD
i like ur version better testbgu tho.. :D

Gotta catch them all!!!! O_o **dies of shame**

lol
ludamad
Mmm, looks like good work. I guess no respectable member on this site ignores the gas issue? ;)
ptar
Lol, there is no gas issue. :)
LGI
Testbug version - FTW!
ludamad
ptar: Yes, I was observing that all the maps here fix the issue.
ptar
Why is here an issue ? Both geysers are on the left side!?! Do you realy know what gas issue is?
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/newsscript/viewarticle.php?newsid=2
Testbug
ptar, he sayd "there is no path issue" :S
read: he sayd NO respectable member would forgot the gass issue, and then he sayd has seen that ALL the map fixed the gass issue.

@LGI:
"FTW!" = "fuck the what!"??
ludamad
;) Testbug is funny with his lack of knowledge of English netspeak. FTW = For the win, and previously ORLY was "Oh really?" And yes, testbug is right, I never said you had the gas issue.
modified by ludamad
ptar
And why you mentioned it??? What do you want to say me? Gonna make the Testbug edits in some days :)
Replays


--Alter.Ego vs cool7(1on1, 1.15)
-- vs scx.Alter.Ego(1on1, 1.15)
--scx.Alter.Ego vs flothefreak(1on1, 1.15)
--a vs b(1on1, 1.14)
--ptar vs neoux(1on1, 1.15)
--ptar vs sG-k(1on1, 1.15)
--ptar vs sG-k(1on1, 1.15)
--ptar vs Kimriaa(1on1, 1.15)
--G.Star vs Raynor 2.0(1on1, 1.15)

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