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Last update for (2)Silver Flush : 2010, 08, 26 12:10
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
2453 (2)Silver Flush 128*128Crackling/Testbug/Flothefreak1.6final

The map has been rated 55 times and got a total of 86 points
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Comments:   GMCS (8 elements)


flothefreak
I present my version of iron flush; finally.
What i basically did was trying to remove the awkwardness, making expanding+expo-spots more balanced, erasing the linear base-to-base gameplay and open up the map, all that while keeping the original flair and many paths.

in no particular order:
i connected the highgrounds as i already showed in Iron Flush mapthread. I moved the gasexpo on it further away so it is harder to "turtle". i added another gas (1500) to the natural but put it behind the minerals; i am not sure about this one...
i removed the little highground before the nat because if i wanted to cut off linear pathing i had to cut off a ramp, which would have made pushing to that highground actually easier (because you now pushed through thinner paths) and this highground would have been an excellent deadly terran stronghold. so i made it plain area with ruins instead of rocky ground (to keep testbug terrain ideas). the map has less linear gameplay now, i hope and much better cross-pathing (so, you can move large armies around the map easily).
the corner gasexpos are very far from battlefield, so to make hidden expos less annoying i gave it an empty gas. this can be discussed as i dont know if this hurts zerg too much (as this expo is a brilliant zerg expo spot and the map is still not too open; esp. nightmarjoo will be able to say a few words here). i also made a wall around it to give it some tactical features in access and attacking/dropping/sieging. i pushed the main's backdoor more to the outside to gain building space. it is not that much, but sufficient now imo; as they were kinda small before. the expos near the corners are flipped now. i did not touch the minonlies near the backyardexpo but made the temple path actually useful - as it is a efficient backdoor you can use now. however, it isnt overwhelming as you can access this spot easily from everywhere.
the map is more open now, still without having a large battlefield i guess, but that is part of the flush concept. the expos still seem somehow close together and crowded, but i think the various paths which are now easier to access help this issue and prevent turteling.

i also made a few smaller things i dont remember now, some need to be done (like reshaping 12h expo).


NOTE: i havent made exact pos. balancing for the moment as this is most likely to change here and there. if you see pos. imbaness, please tell me where you see it. also, i like to hear your opinion about the changes, the map itself, gameplay, balance and so on.

modified by flothefreak
NastyMarine
gosu
NastyMarine
but very very compicated which hurts attraction to the map and gameplay.
Moebius
I'm with NastyMarine on this one. This is one of the most beautiful and unique maps I've seen, but at the same time...it can be easy to get lost/confused.

All in all, much better than Iron Flush, imo.
PsychoTemplar
If that GMCS is right, doesn't that mean Terran in top right won't be able to make a comstat at the natural?

Nevermind, mineral formation on the top right mineral is different anyway.

Good stuff, flo.
modified by PsychoTemplar
flothefreak
i havent yet balanced the naturals out. i plan to make them unsiegeable if possible and correct and pos-balance naturals as i usually do ;)
Crackling
did u tried out the path from main to main?
testbug and me allready tried sth like this (removing middle ramps) and the units have choosen allways the same path, though it was mirrored >.<

things i dislike are the gas at the nat (making the map even more complicated than it is, what is quite impossible :D) and the corner expos (both their design and empty gas).

except of the things i mentioned we allready had exactly the same (changed the loki expos to normal, connected highroundparts of the map and redone the cornerexpos a bit) :P but testbug wanted to work more on endless fields
and anyway he was very busy with school :(

but through all i like this one, only corners, gasnat and those ruins (ugly) near the nat have to be changed A BIT. :P

EDIT: added LOTS gmcs :P

modified by Crackling
Crackling
hmmm wait what do u think about completly removing the xelnaga backdoor? O_O
Crimson)S(hadow
who;d go through the middle when u could go through the other quicker way? u wouldn't hide there too since it gives u height disadvantage
Testbug
i did not upload my edited version, but showed to Crackling, the xel naga tempkle must be moved to the corners, so units don't get confused when movint to the loki (and now gaia) expo if xel nagas are not broken
LGI
I'll try to read all and then comment, i just want it to say... No center path?! WTF?!
Excalibur
G O S U
O_O
Crackling
flo what about fixing the gmcs :P
flothefreak
as soon as i have the time :s
i am mainly concerned about this pathing thing. i tried to fix it but units keep behaving that weird.
Crackling
gogo flo ;D
flothefreak
edits:

-natural is pos. balanced now; gas behind mins definately was too sick: minonly with room behind it again.
-backdoormins 1000, backdoorgas 5000
-corner expos have standard gas but also are now much more accessible. it would be too much a turtle-expo otherwise and now you can invade it faster. plus, large armies dont need to cross the near highground expo to get there.
-corner-pylon-issue should be fixed.
-temple-path is now on highground without ramp so pathing should work. still a tactical knockout route.
-neutral buildings appear and are ling-safe
-side battlefields are decorated now
-so is the path to nat
-i kept the minonly blocker as it makes expanding for terran a bit slower than without.
-pathing issue was unfixable so i came up with this solution. a small hole in the walls allowing rushing troops to reach the enemy's base faster, but the route isnt as overwhelming as with that cliff of the standard flush version. larger armies however probably cant use this small path for a huge attack, as units awaiting on the other side of the entrance are in an excellent fighting position. so i fixed that one-sided pathing while still keeping the outer routes as main combat zones in mid and lategame. i also made the center and its large ramps having a reason again. to put it shortly: the direct pathing is working now fine, but i created it in a way you cant use it later on for large attacks - you need the rest of the map.#

and some other things too...

Crackling
i posted my mana version at tl.net and some guys played it a lot ;D

everything was fine but the 12h+6h toss temple should have more hp (xel-naga) because the backdoor gas expansion was very easy to attack for zerg (lurker or hydra)

i will post this one again at tl.net lets see what they think :D

reset gmcs so i can add new ones =P
modified by Crackling
Crackling
KK :D
Crackling
nightmarjoo comment plz ;D
ProTosS4EveR
Hmpf, the 5h and 10h mud and jungle mix is ugly. :[
Crackling
its beatiful Oo
Moebius
I like it too.

The only aesthetic issue on this map is the horrible blockiness of the terrain around most of the ramps. The copied ramps don't match with the cliffs or were placed 1 matrix out of line with it...or both, since the first leads to the second.
modified by Moebius
Testbug
why is crackling on in the author? :)
Moebius
Because the map was pimped so much you couldn't even remember the original author. xD
ProTosS4EveR
Added gosu GMCS :o
Crackling
so.. finally post this one as MOTM 07?

still wanna nightmarjoo to comment ;o
flothefreak
i think it's fine now.
many issues removed, deco still awesome, balance improved.
Nightmarjoo
Sorry I haven't commented til now. I still want to test more, but I played a comp and came up with some general ideas.

What I still don't like:
Having a backdoor expo. Or rather, having the backdoor expo have your gas. I would be much happier if the nat had the gas and the backdoor was min only. Pathing from the backdoor to the nat is fine, I was concerned that it might not be ;) The backdoor probably makes pvz a little easier, but in general makes it less important to expo as much.
The nat is pretty too open. Also there are rocks in front of the ramp. I'd rather you tightened the nat some, perhaps add to the cliff near the ramp, somewhat blocking the neutral entrance to the min only. Those neutrals are kind of annoying, I'd like having them all removed, but that's up to you. The 16 mineral block is really fucking annoying, it's a fucking mineral only in a map littered with gas expos, what's the point of making it hard to get to?
I kind of think there's too much gas on the map, the only expo I think which could become a min only safely are the lowground corner expos (NW, SE).

Basicly, I think it's much better, and that most of the issues are solved, but I'd really like to actually test it with someone who's not a comp or who plays as bad as a comp :) The things I mentioned above are things I picked up on just from kinda staring at the map while the comp sat there.
flothefreak
i also thought about a gas natural and minonly backdoor, but this setup has already been done a hundred times :< so i like this fresh style.

tightening the natural is okay i think, even if most players will expo quite a while after the 1st on the backdoor.

the neutral temples will stay, an i guess the stasis cells as well; because they guard the minonly and the backdoorminerals. that minonly however shall be quite safe but not turtle-style, so neutrals do their job here quite well as they can be destroyed. the mineralblock is just to prevent terra from only floating. with it, terran has to minslide/kill stasis as the other races have to as well.

corner expos gasless sounds very good


Nightmarjoo
I just think there's too much money with the backdoor in the map. And the min only block would be better if it was 8 minerals and not 16 :(
Nightmarjoo
Me and flo played a game, wasn't that great, we both played poorly for whatever reason. The rep shows the mains could use some space, and that I was right on iron flush about the xel naga backdoor being awkwardly placed and hard to get to etc.

I still think the backdoor expo should be removed to give more space to the mains, and the gas put at the nat. The center felt tight to get into.
Nightmarjoo
Wow flo, you're as bad as me at keeping deadlines! (It's not monday anymore and Silver Flush hasn't been updated, and you said you'd do the edit on monday, as far as I'm concerned doing the edit ensues uploading it^^).
Lancet
I don't see that at all. In fact I liked the XelNaga backdoor the way it was but the one on Silver will do. Your replay was not as exciting as the one of Crackling vs Testbug but it shows that this version of flush still retains the apparent vulnerability that one feels in the original version, so it's fine. Great map! Post it.
Testbug
oh he did the updates on monday.
but he won't upload it until next sunday
flothefreak
yeah i didnt have the time
but i will try to do it today.
ProTosS4EveR
Author Radix/Testbug/flothefreak ?? Radix??? xDD
flothefreak
changed author

mapchanges:
-natural is tighter now, allowing also easier access to the stasis cells once your enemy has taken his nat!
-as the access mentioned above is easier now, i decreases the other neutral temple to stasis cell as well
-corner expos are minonlies
-enlarged the ramps leading to the highground areas to improve moving around on this map, also opening it up there
-minblock is 8 now
-thickened the natural's wall@top pos.
-played around wiht player colors, dunno if it works^^
Alter.Ego
Now all that's left is to add some forests as per the latest fashion trend :-)
Nightmarjoo
I'll do some personal testing later.

Mains didn't change huh :(
Testbug
it's a totally new map, it's compeltely different. this is not created by testbug and modified by flothefreak xD

write flo in the author ;)
Crackling
i'd hit it
Crackling
u forgot removing gas up left corner -.-
flothefreak
i call it positional variety
Crackling
you also should remove anything unbuildable at the mains-ramps (i see some doodad at whites ramp)...
p needs get good pylon/forge/cannon placement for fe

and still, wouldnt it be better to remove the xelnaga-2.entrance completly?
modified by Crackling
flothefreak
basically yes because a backdoor like this is always a complicating thing, which is not necessary on Silver Flush at all.

there is enough space at the nats for P FE, i pay attention to such things.

i am only sticking to it because i think it is needed to weaken terran...
modified by flothefreak
NastyMarine
noticed in game that alot of the ramp blends could be A LOT better :o
Crackling
not enough gas per player for my taste :x
NastyMarine
in my opinion i dont think there is an issue for gas. I think once u play it more often you'll understand the key areas to obtain gas when and where to grab specific expos.

I thought the map had good flow thus far and i like those choke points that connect the middle battlefield and the rest of the map.

BUT those blends could be done a lot better.
Nightmarjoo
Crackling, it's a (2)map, so there doesn't need that much gas. Consider luna, 8 gas total, same as this now. If anything, there's still too much gas. Tighter maps are only (imo, this is how I always saw it) imba because more gas allows for more units with splash. With less gas, a tight map is no more imbalanced than any other map (there can be issues if it's too tight still, of course). So, the more gas you have, imo, the more open the map should be. If you want a tighter map, you should remove some gas, I guess. This map is not all that tight, so it doesn't need even this much gas, certainly no more.


Flo, are you still working on this? You have any ideas you want to add or remove from the map any more? Crackling, you want anything done with the map? Or can I just post the map as motm, along with Testbug's map?
I'm still gonna make Gold Flush, but I don't want it motm. This map imo is not perfect by any means, but I guess it's as good as it's gonna get =/ My big complain is the main space, especially with the xel naga backdoor, but I'll address stuff like that in my Gold Flush.
Crackling
actually, testbug is making a new (2)royal flush :D

so maybe wait for his map, than for yours and let the users choose (a small vote) one of the Flush's? :D:D:D
Testbug
they already kno i'm making a NEW map, from the begiining.
problem is: i'll start exams on monday and have to trade some pokémons from the nintendo game cube to the game boy, so they can migrate to a nintendo ds.

i'll probably use 128x96 or 96x128. is that allright?
flothefreak
i am fine with this version. i have no things to change, currently.
Lancet
So come on, post this baby! MOTM-7 go go go!
spinesheath
FIX BLENDS!!!! :p
NastyMarine
flo honestly, fix those fucking blends.
flothefreak
which ones?
i didnt touch some of them, some of them are edited, and some of them completely mine
Nightmarjoo
So we're delaying motm for looks? :)
Testbug
what about replacing motm7 with snow shock?
flothefreak
edited the ramps
probably not perfect, as i hardly make these ramps myself, but good enough for motm now ;D

gogo post it
Testbug
let me see if i can redo your copy/pastes...
Testbug
look, i did my edits at the observer version (you can remove the start locations and get the melee)
i also want to edit NW and SE :$
flothefreak
where did you edit my ramps? i only looked over a few but couldnt see a striking difference...
Testbug
you had wrong copy/paste issues
Testbug
blueish grey and pale green?
have you tested that colors?? :S
i don't think it can be shown properly ingame
Nightmarjoo
Are you guys satisfied with the ramp shit?
Crackling
Nightmarjoo, go play azalea :]
its the map with the least strategical things i can think of... :P
even less then luna
Nightmarjoo
Azalea is a great map

i am the fucker, sorry.
modified by flothefreak
Lancet
When is this going to be posted MOTM-7? It's way overdue, stop the editing and please post it.
spinesheath
Least strategical things? Luna?
Nightmarjoo
Are you guys satisfied with the ramps? Y/N
NastyMarine
NO I'll gmcs where there are bad blends.
Testbug
why is crackling in the map's author?
flo, won't you listen to Nasty never?
Crackling
because crackling kinda invented the most weird main/nat/backdoornat setup ever :d
ludamad
I like this map a lot after watching that replay by crackling and nastymarine, looks like a very complex map :)
lancet
Yes, amazing isn't it? One of the best maps here in terms of attacking possibilities. However, this map rewards those that carefully study the maps before playing them and most players just don't like to play that way. I think that is why it is not super popular (like it SHOULD be).

: ^ )
Crackling
for those who like this map a lot, take a look at (2)Iron Flush, its kinda the same but without any path issues and just BETTER at all, the crappy things (like testing showed) very removed and units moving was perfected :o
Testbug
hey flo! i found 72 wrong copy/pasted terrain in 1/4 of the map T_T
flothefreak
i dont know what you mean.
Testbug
open the map or watch a replay. i cry inside each time a see how could make those mistakes :S you are florian the freak!! come on
flothefreak
Gosh darn it! be precise for fuckings sake.
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--Nightmarjoo[BA] vs flothefreak(1on1, 1.15)
--Nastymarine vs Nb.Crackling(1on1, 1.15)
--Nb.Crackling vs Nastymarine(1on1, 1.15)

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