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Last update for (2)Black Widow : 2016, 10, 29 21:51
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
2771 (2)Black Widow 128*128Grief_Stricken4.2finalground

The map has been rated 79 times and got a total of 335 points
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Comments:   GMCS (2 elements)


uC.MorroW
this is very good. u should add 2 ramps at other side of edges at upper place (look GMC)
flothefreak
yeah, seconded. map seems quite decent, only the lowground stuff on top isnt done well.
Starparty
id like to see some strategical additions too, like cliffs on some expansions or similar.
NastyMarine
good structure. I'm not sure about the northern expos thought. only two normal size ramps to get to that area???
Grief_Stricken
what you talking about - they are 3*wider!
SiaBBo
Pretty nice. ^^ Good idea.
flothefreak
still not enough for that important part of the map (4expos)
Nightmarjoo
gas issue
zvt will be very hard because the 3rd gas is so far from everything else and isn't all that defensible
pvz will be hard because the expos are so far apart
main2nat distance seems a bit long?
There really isn't any flank room, and the top is very hard to use because there's only one path to it from both sides, and it's not very big.
Seems very easy for tvp, you can push through the middle and take your 3rd base, p can't flank very well, and it'll be easy to abuse the expos with vults because everything is so far apart.
Very hard to harass the main mineral lines, though the mains are so big that it's annoyingly easy to drop.
NastyMarine
oops sorry.
Lancet
Place a geyser in the central minonlies, widen the center by making the mains a bit smaller and create an extra access route to the top fom those two "prong-shape" plateaus.

Will you enter this for the ash map competition?
modified by Lancet
MorroW
"zvt will be very hard because the 3rd gas is so far from everything else and isn't all that defensible" - LUNA Z>T, z doesnt neeed a third gas that bad as a rule....

"pvz will be hard because the expos are so far apart" - they rnt so far

"Seems very easy for tvp, you can push through the middle and take your 3rd base, p can't flank very well" - wtf, that is totally bullshit, protoss stronger than terran early game, enough with 2gate robo to stop a push. push is counter tech or fe.

"the mains are so big that it's annoyingly easy to drop." - TAU CROSS, yes its easy to drop but u can only suspect drop from 1 direction which makes it hard still, ROV

rest of what u said Nightmarjoo i agree with.
Nightmarjoo
...lol morrow.

Luna does too have a 3rd gas, it's called another main. Also, zvt is virtually impossible to win if t FEs and z can't get a 3rd gas, unless he gets a lucky ling rush.

This map's 3rd base is farther from the nat than in any pro map within the last 2-3 years, I'm pretty sure lol. Also, if they were far and defensible I could understand, but they're out in the open -.-

I'm obviously not talking about early game, because you don't push during early game -.-
Push is taking vultures and tanks and moving with leap-frog style siege/unsiege while dropping mines to cover flanks, slow goons, and kill zlots. Terran will most likely FE on the map, get 5-6 factories and make vults/tanks, then push out while taking his 3rd base. The map is pretty linear, he has a straight shot to go, and there isn't much room for protoss to surround and flank t as he goes; it's very easy to just set mines to cover flanks, and there is buildable ground for turrets in the center. Look at the middle of the map, assume it's suicide to come straight at a decent push (we're assuming the players aren't incompetent, which might be pushing it -.-), p has to come at atleast 2 directions, but he really can't safely because there isn't much room to flank. There's plenty of room to move around in, but t can block virtually all attempts to flank unless p takes the route through the lowground and goes around. This will take forever for one, and it'll be hard to move his army through that choke, and more importantly up a narrow choke near a 3rd base t just took and will have mines and tanks awaiting p.

This map has larger mains than tau, and tau mains are large but still easy to watch from all sides, these mains almost have a seperate annex far from where most players place their buildings. Rov's main near the choke is very narrow, so non-z has to use the wider section if the game gets past 7 minutes, so that'll be covered later on. As for rush drops, it's a small 1v1 map prone to drops like that, only a retard isn't going to be looking out for drops. You could say the same for this map, except that this map's mains don't require building in the place that attracts drops, and attempting to put shit near there would be going out of your way, hence why it's annoying. Also rov is sortof a bad example, because everything is so close you won't be too far from your main should it get dropped. Everything is very spaced out on this map. On rov I don't think I've ever seen a doom-drop anyway lol.

Lancet, adding gas to the map there won't help the map. It might initially help zvt, but pvt will be fucked, and zvp will be hard.
Lancet
If you place the gas on the central minonly then third gas won't we so "far" away plus it's a 128x128 map with only 7 gas, it needs a little more. You can make the mains smaller to provide more room to flank in ther center. Really, the problems of the map are fixable.

As to terran FE, I don't quite know what you mean by that, surely you don't mean FE as fast as zerg or toss. If toss or zerg is agressive in the opening game terran can't FE.
Nightmarjoo
Um Lancet I don't know when the last time you played bw vs someone who both wasn't a comp and had an apm over 50, but every single t goes FE tvz, and many t go FE tvp. To not go FE tvz is suicide unless you can cheese your way through a drop rush or tank rush; and I say cheese because if your rush fails you've lost lol. As for tvp, some t prefer 2fact opening, but from what I've seen most terrans either do FD terran -> FE or just straight up 1fact FE.
spinesheath
If you don't get ahold of the top end of your ramp in tvp very early, you will have a problem. See Requiem. So you will most likey see terrans FEing. 1 fax Gundam or whatever. The distance should be sufficient, and since it's a 2 player map, offgates and the likes are no big threat.
Crackling
hey come on morrow KNOWS what he is talking about, he is 42% winrate on iccup!

he MUST know it.
Nightmarjoo
lol crackling

Ok, I zvt'd on this map. I'll upload the replay I guess.
Basically, 3rd gas is impossibly far away.
Main2nat distance is fine.
I didn't check the middle.
The mains didn't seem too bad.
The 3rd base (min only) is kind of pretty far.
Using the lowground path is awful. It basically might as well not exist, because if you rely on it you will lose.
Lancet
I guess that we have a problem with semantics here. When is an FE not an FE? What time frame? I have seen hundreds of replays over the years and terran has seldom expanded as fast as toss or zerg.

The reason, of course is obvious, terran has the weakest early unit, the marine, toss the strongest, the zealot plus photon cannons and zerg the fastest (at this stage) and most disconcerting and anoying, the ling (which can also burrow if you research it), plus sunkens. Terran just doesn't have what is required to FE, at least as fast as zerg or toss.

I have seen replays where terran overextended itself trying for a quick FE just to see it sucumb to zealots or lings. Terran can only REALLY FE against non-agressive players.

Even when terran takes its nat relativelly fast its not an FE by my book.

Requiem is a difficult map for terran because of this. The high ground nat requires control of the high ground early on and its difficult to pull it against good players.
Nightmarjoo
um tvz you can 1rax FE, that is, making one barracks, a depot at 14 or so, making marines and scvs constantly until your money hits 400 (you have 4-6 marines then, I guess) and then making the cc. Assuming you understand how to scout and bring 3ish scvs to your ramp, a 9pool can't even stop you from FEing.

tvt, I know there's one build where you make rax normally but not take gas, and cc at 14.

tvp the timing depends on what p does a lot, but it's common to make one factory, get a machine shop, get a tank and siege mode, get 4-6 marines, keep making tanks, get an academy and some turrets if you feel the need, the making cc; of course that's just the safest way, you can cc after the first tank, or before the ebay, w/e.
spinesheath
As you can see, the meaning of FE depends on the mu. z fe usually is anything from 9 fe to pool + fe after 3 pairs of lings.
p fe is nex first to forge (gate) cans nex in pvz and from nex first to gate core nex in tvp.
t fe can be rax rines cc or any variation of 1 fax cc builds.
Lancet
In fact, one of Boxer's games on requiem was featured as a pimpest play for some fancy micro he did with his wraiths against scourges. What many don't know about this game is that he lost it. Zerg just pummelled the nat over and over and he could not defend.
Nightmarjoo
That was on a pre-FE era map in a pre-FE era game with two micro oriented players. Lancet, welcome to 2008, it's a bit different than 2002 -_-
Testbug
terran can build command center before barrax vs protoss or zerg.
example:
FirebatHero vs Stork @Rush Hour III
stork went normal gate-assimilator-core and FBH went cc-barrax-gass-factory.
he didn't build the cc inside, he just builded in the nat, and normal timed dragoons couldn't do nothing against his bunker, and no-siege tank + scvs

also JaedongG lose vs a fast command center last month, he went 2hatch muta and (i think it was light) FEd so he got too strong for a 2hatch
that's why JaedongG's ZvT record is 99-1 ;)
Lancet
LOL! Zerg has been FEing since the dawn of Starcraft.

Testbug, a comand center BEFORE barracks? Holy shit, that's gutsy. Depending on the map and how early your oponent scouts I guess it can be done but you have to admit its not the norm.
RaDiX
it's called 14cc I think. Very risky, but good strategy if your opponent is far/scouts slow
LasTCursE
WOW
LasTCursE
you are the mest map maker i v ever seen
Grief_Stricken
a small upgrade on this one since my last log
Nightmarjoo
I just think everything is too spread out and that the map is too linear. The former is caused by the map being 128x128, and the ladder is caused by using y symmetry without using a tight path (like in blitzx).
Grief_Stricken
linearity is not an issue and it will never be.rov or gravity did very well with their linear designs and whitout a tight path.i'm not a fan of blitz anyway,even if it's an ok map.the tankable(from the mains)expo between the mains is something i can approve in a serious map.the 2 that i mention before i like more
Nightmarjoo
It's a straight path from main to main, nat to nat, and the only other path is basically unuseable because the ramp is small, and it's too far from the main pathing anyway, but not less linear, and then leads into another too-small ramp, and the whole top half of the map won't work because of how close the two ramps are to eachother.

I never played gravity and haven't taken the time to look at it too carefully so I won't make a call, but I've never thought the map was at all amazing.

Rov is decidedly non-linear because of its proper expo layout, and because of the altitude differences. You can't go in a straight line between nats because you'll get raped from shit in the highground.
Grief_Stricken
o,rly
LasTCursE
i love this map ;[
ProTosS4EveR
i love your comments
LasTCursE
o rly :O
LasTCursE
a question to all in here!! pls answer!

- HOW TO MAKE THE MAP NAME WHEN YOU MAKE A GAME WITH RED OR GREEN. IN MY SCM DRAFT 2 I CAN MAKE THEM ONLY 3 COLORS
Grief_Stricken
ok, because u post this under one of my maps i feel somehow responsible to answer; but next time open a topic or try to find a guide about it. i'm pretty sure there are some...

back to the issue. never heard before about this bug "only 3 colours". maybe your draft is somehow damaged - reinstall. <07> is red - <03> is green. if we will try to use green and red for the name of this map it will be <07>Black <03>Widow; where Black will be displayed red and Widow green.

ok?
LasTCursE
HOW TO MAKE FOG OF WAR in a map ?
Grief_Stricken
you don't need to care about;that happens automatically by the AI of the game. otherwise when u start a game it will look like you have scouted the map before
Grief_Stricken
Latest version added
Replays


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