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Last update for (4)Korhal Pride1.3 : 2009, 12, 14 05:11
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3067 (4)Korhal Pride1.3 128*128NastyMarine2.0leagueground

The map has been rated 31 times and got a total of 62 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


NastyMarine
feedback on layout would be nice :)

what areas can i modify for better symmetry?
Nightmarjoo
I like it so far.

NW/SE look bigger than NE/SW. Also their nats look bigger.
Grief_Stricken
i don't !

first i need too understand what you plan on 3-6-9-12 - these holes are big and with no connection to the rest of the map.once tanks behind the nat they will crush p/z and no way to respond.how about moving these plateaus behind the nats and add a ramp to them? they can become a bit smaller

mains aren't large enough,and the nat area seems to be pretty small;nat is hopelessly defenseless against muta harass;few room for cannons/turrets

you can place expos on that place where the plateaus are at the moment.if you draft it carefully it is possible to place 4 minonlies nearer to the zone where the holes on 3-6-9-12 end,where they touch the middle of the map.

middle need to be tighten
Grief_Stricken
btw,i haven't oversaw the symbol in the middle - cool idea.but i guess in order to place some minonlies nearer to the middle you have to make it smaller.otherwise no room for them...
LasTCursE
why on the picture is only one StarLocation and the maps is for 4 ?
Grief_Stricken
obviously 'cause the map is still "under contruction";it isn't big deal to see if you look closer,the 4 player design.also the name isn't complete too -.-
spinesheath
Well, grief, LT has a cliff overlooking the nat and still it is NOT impossible to win the game once a t sieges there.

Now on this map, the height levels are inverted. The tanks have the 70% hit chance, while the defender has 100% (if he is in range). That hole is buildable, though, making it easy to land a fax there and build an addon. But even that was possible on some positions / versions of LT.

Also, on this map if terran goes for the tank drop, he will have a tough time defending his main, especially against p, because of the requiem-style ramp. If he decides to float a fax, his unit production at his main will be very low as well.

And if he delays that drop enough to be safe, protoss will get out a shuttle, while z will have muta. And having to get an early shuttle as p is nothing problematic as well - remeber that you basically HAVE to get a quick reaver in pvt on Bluestorm. And still the map is fairly balanced.




I don't like that the paths from the naturals to the middle have different lengths. Top left and bottom right are much safer.
modified by spinesheath
Grief_Stricken
"Well, grief, LT has a cliff overlooking the nat and still it is NOT impossible to win the game once a t sieges there." - i didn't say that;far from it!i encourge him to bring these plateaus behind the nats - like on lt!please read carefully my comment if you wanna bash me.the point is the nat setup doesn't allow you to defend like you do on lt - here it's worser.few room for sunks/canons + the mineral line is an obstacle too
spinesheath
No, you don't encourage a plateau like on lt because you wanted a ramp to that plateau. That's a huge difference as it does not force you to get drop at all.

And making a little more room for cans is by far simpler and concept-keeping than modifying the whole cliff.

Besides, you rarely can defend against tank drops from below your cliff on lt (except for tvt). A terran usually will not move his tanks into goon range recklessly. It's possible to delay the drop a litte, especially at 12 and 6, but that's it.
NastyMarine
Map updated. Still need decoration done. Teals start loc is going to get moved a bit to the left. Ramps at 12 3 6 9 still need to be added.

comments apprectiated
Crackling
nice one, i like it
Nightmarjoo
What are you going to do with the center? Don't tell me you plan on leaving it like that...

Overall I like it, it's pretty basic, but there are a couple things that bother me:

1. The mains are too small. I'm positive you can't fit everything you need into there, and you don't really have anywhere else to put it elsewhere on the map.

2. Why do blue and teal's starting location position and formation suck dick so much? Specifically, I want to know why it's in the middle of the main, and why it faces away from the ramp, resulting in all sorts of awkward scenarios arising.

3. Red's geyser is in the way. If the starting location was moved to the right a bit it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but then the minerals would be tankable then right?

4. General positional imbalances. Like, purple's sl placement is basically fine. His main is too small still, but he can best use his space out of all the players. Red and purple's sls aren't fucked (facing the wrong way) but teal and blue's are, why? Blue's sl is closer to the edge, meaning it's easier to harass than red or teal, but then purple also is closer to the edge.

5. The 3rd gas expos are hard to attack. The only possible drop or harass room in the expo, is on the side facing the player, ie your opponent can't harass or drop it easily. You can tank it, but only barely from red and purple's min only, while you can hit a lot from teal and blue's. Er nevermind, there's room for drops and harass, but only in teal and blue's expo lol. There's just a tiny amount of room in purple and red's, but you'll just place your turrets or w/e there =/

6. Because of the expo layout, it's impossible to drop the mains lategame, when your opponent has all the expos around their main. This makes zvp lategame really hard. In general the map strongly disfavours harass, except at the nats.

7. The middle takes up more than half the total space in the map, and there's nothing but a Nike symbol in it. The fact that the 3rd gases are very difficult to attack is almost irrelevant, since the middle is so large, it gives you countless times to reposition and reinforce your army as you're pushed back in the middle, so that by the time your opponent actually gets near your 3rd gas, you've already lost the game.

8. You have a much better ovy spot at blue/teal than at red/purple.

9. Mineral only islands?

Balance-wise:

I think the map is z>t atm, but I'm not sure. The huge middle helps terran more than zerg the way python's does, because it's easy for terran to move and reposition his army, but in general despite that it still of course heavily favours flanks and whatnot, even if lurkers and defilers won't be as strong as in other maps (but same as in python). The nats make muta pretty strong, even if the mains really suck for muta (far sl + condensed layout). I think more room at the 3rd base would help drops more and give terran an easier time.

zvp I'd probably say p>z, but I'm not sure. The middle is flank favouring, but you can still get lost in it and get out-positioned easily. The expos and mains being hard to drop hurts zerg, as protoss can still easily ht drop, especially at the nats. Lurkers though will be a big pain for protoss, but manageable with storm and/or goon. Thing with zvp is that it's usually up to the players to balance, but I feel there are elements which help protoss, and none which explicitly favour zerg. I don't know if there's a balance problem or not.

I'd say p>t but I'm not sure. The limited dropability of the map also hurts recalls, which can hurt protoss in lategame, but the expo layout is definitely protoss favouring here. Terran can fairly easily take his 3rd, but I think it'll be harder than usual to get a 4th base (the min only island really doesn't count imo). The buildable nature of most of the middle helps terran deal with the middle being so open, so I dunno. The mains have reduced mineral values right for a couple of the blocks? I think this hurts terran substantially.

Balance-wise I think then, that it's mostly fine. I think though, that making the mains bigger and more open, giving the 3rd bases more room, and fixing the many positional imbalances would make the map pretty solid. Please do something with the middle lol. I don't know what atm, but if I think of something I'll tell you =/
NastyMarine
Let the sex commence

Finished map
MorroW
positional imbalance (teal can tank reds island)
rly akward mains (also not mirrored well)
ugly middle :P (i know thats a question of taste but still)

make main larger equally remove size of the ramp expand
NastyMarine
not mirrored well? "YA OK"

where is the tankable area?

remove size of ramp expan? what ?
Nightmarjoo
Well, I think everything in my above comment still applies, so read it if you haven't already :)
NastyMarine
i didnt make a new pic but gave the other two mains better ovs spots
NastyMarine
played 3 ZvTs a bit ago. Got smashed. apparently after a week or so of no gaming I lose my depot timing sense :)
Nightmarjoo
What did you think of the map (specifically in relation to all of my concerns/criticisms)?
NastyMarine
damn i was one map off from being 1000 id's away from (4)AquaRidge ^^
NastyMarine
well i got smashed basically so I cant really tell. Need more consistent player(s) than myself. I am not consistent
NastyMarine
the new rep is pretty entertaining
Nightmarjoo
lol you're really not doing anything with the middle? :(
Grief_Stricken
he placed a doodad -.-
NastyMarine
LOL what? THE MIDDLE IS THE WHOLE POINT. SONS OF KORHAL INSIGNIA = KORHAL PRIDE
Nightmarjoo
That's not Nike?
Testbug
not nike????? :(
NastyMarine
No its Nick*
Nightmarjoo
lol
NastyMarine
quick update for some tiles. new pic
NastyMarine
what if i connected the main bases to the mineral onlies? I could remove some of the platform sealing off its entry?
modified by NastyMarine
Crackling
do it :O
Nightmarjoo
Whatever you do, do it quickly please, and make obs for this map and spinel so I can use both maps in the bwm weekly tournament. I can't post the tournament without the mappack, so I'm waiting on this map ._.
Nightmarjoo
I like that idea btw.
Crackling
can i make an awesome centerdeco for you nasty? :S
NastyMarine
no[period]
Nightmarjoo
Why not[question mark]
NastyMarine
because I like the Korhal insignia EDIT[period]

the logo is sex
modified by NastyMarine
NastyMarine
I'm going to make edits on this map.

mineral only will be open to the main via the small paths hugging the sides of the map.

Fix 2 entrance positioning for 11 and 5

adjust the start locs for 11 and 5
NastyMarine
Above Updates were made.
Crackling
after playing it i have to say i like it
small things to fix: look my gmcs
and make reds and purples minerals face the same way like the others.

we discussed it and think that it might be very Z>>>P due to very open middle and a low mineral count overall.

adding a gas to the minonly would help P in PvZ A LOT, what about ones with 1000gas to give P a temporary advatage/boost to be able to secure more expos?

well, really good map, gj!
NastyMarine
well my idea originally was to have easier to harass mains. then with the recent edit I thought. Teal and Blue CANNOT be put at the corners b/c it would be too awkward/close to the entrances so that means they'd need to be moved along the side of the map eliminating that problem.
But for Red and Purple, on the other hand, has a different problem/solution. It can utilize the set up that I had originally b/c it has the cover of two sides of the map (the corners). so moving them to be along the side of the map would give the minerals too much cover in relation to Blue and Teal.

Are you following what I mean? does it make sense?
Nightmarjoo
No, and probably not.

I thought the map felt really awkward, but it could just be me. Just everything feels like it's in the wrong spot, and there's so many expos I have no idea which to take with which hatch, etc.

btw, the map needs an ovy spot, you removed it by connecting the main and nat.

I hate how open the middle is, it's so hard to find shit in the map because it's a fucking ocean.

I wish you could make the nat entrances a little smaller, from the edge on the ramp's side.

I think adding gas to the min only will help balance and gameplay all around.

I think it's z>p because zerg just has so many options for expoing, and can easily harass protoss, on top of being able to super flank p.
For same reasons I think it's p>t.
For zvt, I'm tempted to think it's t>z the way python 1.1 was, how both lurkers and defilers are far less effective given the openness of the map, and how it can be hard to find your opponent, but I dunno. It could be t=z as Crackling thinks.

The map felt awkward, but I don't really know why or what you could change because I'm like half asleep today
illisid
I dont know if anything I can say will help, but sometimes an inexperienced eye can have something good to say... so might as well.

it seems the bases are too much to the side. I always like something in the middle to fight over... and I understand that the badass symbol kinda prohibits that, but i think it feels too much like a bax, with stuff on the sides and nothing special in the middle.

Didnt read all of the comments here, but i caught something about awkward play, and i disagree, though im not good enough to offer much of an opinion on that part :/

and a personal annoyance, i always felt like space tileset should be more square. what kind of engineer would design a space station to be all jagged? with dark platform and low platform it's ok, those can be random. and the randomness looks badass, but i feel space should be less random. thats just me though...
NastyMarine
lets face it, I cant please everyone. -____-
Nightmarjoo
WalrusTerran
NastyMarine
I can make a small area for ovs in the next edit. And giving gas to the mineral only wouldnt be good for tvp imo
modified by NastyMarine
Crackling
P with 3 gas is a lot more powerful vs Z.
NastyMarine
thats xxxxxx. in PvZ both races need gas equally
modified by Testbug
Crackling
no, P's hightechunits like Dts, archons, Ht, sairs, reavers are very gas heavy. If p can reach a critical mass on this units Z cant stop him in the open field and has to avoid any kind of battles, going for expansiondrops and expansionturtle style.

just watch some PvZ vods and you'll NEVER, i mean like REALLY NEVER see a Z win vs a P with 4 gas.
(well maybe on horribly imbalanced maps)
Nightmarjoo
No they don't nasty lol. That's why longinus II is p>z, because of the double gas.

Also, in tvp, the map is already sooooooooo wide open. Adding gas will just help correct the openness problem a bit. I find that, the tighter a map is, the less gas you should have, and vice versa (usually).

Not only that, protoss can attack and harass that min only so easily, while it'll be really hard for terran to defend it, because he has to bring units into his main then around his nat to go into the min only.
Nightmarjoo
Hey Crackling, I beat you zvp on Whoosh and you had 4gas :D
Crackling
:(
SiaBBo
Well, Whoosh is horribly imbalanced map.
Crackling
yep :o
Nightmarjoo
Maybe, but I'd think it was p>z ;)
NastyMarine
i added more cliffs near the min only for an ov spot and I made the passage at 12 and 6 wider.
Nightmarjoo
is it can be min only with gas time?
NastyMarine
dont you think that will overpower ZvT????
Grief_Stricken
currently,the middle of the map is still too large
Nightmarjoo
Not really Nasty, more gas means terran has more tanks/vessels and zerg has more scourge/ultra/defilers. Defilers aren't overwhelmingly strong in this map anyway since it's so open. More tanks and vessels will make ultras less effective, but at the same time zerg will be able to scourge the vessels more, etc.
Testbug
plase nastymarine, place some high platform near the choke (where you placed low platform) see crackling's gmcs.

if this map is Z>P and P>T right now, you can easly correct that by placing another gass in the nat, maybe a 2500 gass.

isn't it too tirtle right now? i don't understand that backdoor minonly. what about another entrance to the minonly from the center? (and then blocking main-to-mionly path with something :S

also, you are the only person who wants to keeep the middle like that [period] it's not that we want you to change your map as we want. you should accept suggestions, you can make the same symbol smaller.

since anybody can edit your map, you'll have someday YOUR map, winning a motm because SOMEONE ELSE edited it and placed HIS name on map author.
MorroW
more gas wouldnt favour terran more , at least not in 1v1. protoss use the gas more than terran. seriously
Johnny B.Goode
Some of you should better look closer before you post.This should be a turtle map? How you call LT or Luna? This here has 4 exes more than Luna.For me only the middle seems to be too open.To easy for z/p to control
Crackling
excuse testbug, he isnt such a good player and he was the only one saying its a turtlemap
spinesheath
You don't turtle. Turtle = loss. Except for the end of the game, but you'll have to assure that there are not enough resources left on the map for your enemy to wear out your defenses. To achieve this, you'll have to turn the game into an expansion-heavy macro game.

You'd rather call such maps macro maps. 3 gas and a minonly which are fairly easy to grab is quite a lot, actually, so I'd say macro ftw^^

About the middle - what stats does Python have? Hell, I miss that on ICC, PGT just was better^^
Crackling
by turtling he means having lots of expansion and all of them easy to defend.
this leads to taking expoes, macro to 200, push out
and this each game...
NastyMarine
Let us just play more games on it?
NastyMarine
aye or nay for closing the mineral only off to the main.
Crackling
keep it like it is right now
MorroW
so where the hell do zerg send his lord vs terran????, add ove cliffs at nat
NastyMarine
Update:

Rearranged main minerals for Red and Purple.

Added Ov Spots
Testbug
oh, now blue and teal minonoly ca't be tanked from the center.

i was saying if the map wasn't going to be some turtle by deffending only 1 place you get 4 expos with 3 gasses.
i didn't say "i find this map too too turtle" i was just asking why isn't this turtle?

how would a path from center to minonly affect the map? if minonly to main is blovcked with something.
Nightmarjoo
Keep the min only the way it is now, I really like that. Even if it encourage more macro, it adds another big methods of harass, both on the mains and min onlys, and the nats from the min onlys, but it's not too strong since you can use the path to the min only to attack anything there if you need, etc.
Nightmarjoo
general bump
Nightmarjoo
Bumping for my convenience.
NastyMarine
bump for what
MorroW
his convenience.
Nightmarjoo
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=76865
Crackling
blue and greens ovi spots are by far not as good as the other. you can see all the highground because of the holes!

plu fix
Nightmarjoo
Nasty, permission to upload Korhal Pride 1.3? The changes are:
Restored one of the three 500 mineral blocks to 1500
Fixed ovy positions for NW and SE and put tiles on NE's and SW's to ensure it's impossible to drop a tank there
Improved observer version

My name is not in the map at all, just says NastyMarine.

And then any subsequent changes made during this tourney week would also be part of the 1.3 edit.
Nightmarjoo
This map seems to playing very well so far.
NastyMarine
U can add it if u want. as well as putting your name as edit
Nightmarjoo
Cool, thanks. I still left my name out because the edits weren't very big nor time consuming.
Nightmarjoo
Yello-ant wanted the map's name changed because he thought people might confuse the map with (2)Korhal otherwise, so I named the iCCup version (4)Mengsk Pride, hope you don't mind. I couldn't find you in time to ask what you wanted to name it.
Nightmarjoo
New iccup map.
NastyMarine
i like that name too actually. awesome that this map was added.
Nightmarjoo
great
NastyMarine
who has (4)mengsk pride that i can dl?
Replays


--Entertaining vs Pro_Toss(1on1, 1.15)
--ilovejesus vs smi.aurious(1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Nightmarjoo(1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Nightmarjoo(1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Nightmarjoo(1on1, 1.15)
--cA59x vs Morrow[MB](1on1, 1.15)

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