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Last update for (4)Nowhere : 2008, 07, 08 10:51
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3134 (4)Nowhere 128*128jeb0.1finalground

The map has been rated 49 times and got a total of 5 points
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Observer

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Comments:   GMCS (1 elements)


jeb
Hello again, I'd like some feedback to get an idea if it's worthwhile to finish the map and add decorations.

Some notes:

- Has two naturals.
- The platform natural has an open area behind the minerals to allow easy drops, but since it also looks down over the entrance to the other natural, I suppose it's a bit different compared to (for example) Colosseum.
- The road natural has a thin wall which can be sieged if you have vision. The mineral line is within lurker range at most parts. This natural can also be sieged from the central platform, and is probably fairly easy to harass with mutas.
- The main can be closed off at two locations with rax and supply depot.

I decided to upload the map because, unlike my other map (Winter Bliss), this was quite fun to play with computers :)
SiaBBo
Terran is too powerful here. 3 gasses and with tight area. Lots of good tank spots. Remove gas high grass expo? And then add gas at 3 and 9. Make expos at 12 and 6.
MorroW
i think decoration would help this map alot more.
siabbo im not saying ur wrong but some pro league maps got backdoor gas also (all i could think of was loki), maybe u should just reduce the ammount of the gas in the backdoor to 2000 ?
Nightmarjoo
I disagree, Siabbo.

The nats could be better shaped. The entrance is really far from the formation, hard on zerg zvt vs mnm rushes. Also, the ovy spot is pretty far from most of the nat, making it far less functional than in most maps. I dunno if it's a problem though.

The backdoor nats look awkward to me, but they might be fine.

I don't think the water behind the backdoor nats is necessary.

The main choke is really wide, if you're going to leave it that way you have to make the nat choke a little smaller, and just force FE every game like on longinus.

I tried to have a cliff overseeing the nat in faoi which lead to the middle, so it functioned basically the same as your lowground thing does. I opted to remove it to be more secure about gameplay/balance. It's an interesting idea, but I think it could be detrimental to balance. Consider that you're already forcing players to FE with your big choke, and then put an anti-FE feature like those cliffs in =/ A defender can't really use those ramps to get there, so they only benefit the attacker, so maybe block the ramp(s) with a neutral building?
modified by Nightmarjoo
jeb
Cool, thanks for the feedback

I noticed that the gas in the lower left wasn't buildable by human players, so I will have to upload a new version.

Would the map get better if I made the main choke smaller? I mean, then the players would feel more comfortable expanding to the high ground, and the "unsafe" expansion outside the base would have to wait a little longer.
Nightmarjoo
Yes, but players would still take the front nat first.
MorroW
yep hes right
jeb
I've uploaded a new version.

- Reshaped the platform exp
- Made main choke smaller, can be blocked with just rax now
- Added neutral sunkens next to the chokes
- Made mains slightly bigger

Ok, I want to motivate these changes a little. The most severe issue you mentioned is the possibility of MnM rushes vs zerg, when the front exp is so risky. I decided to add the neutral sunks instead of making the front exp safer, because I think that is more interesting. I mean... exping to the front is still possible, but at a gamble.
Nightmarjoo
lol I think you missed the point.
jeb
Heh... I don't *think* I missed the point. The thing is that you said the ramps are anti-FE, and at the same time people wants to FE in that direction. Sounds like rock-paper-scissors to me... on this map it's simply not as good to expand in that direction, so a different strategy needs to be used, and the backwards expansion offers an option.

But, as I said, you're right that if zerg doesn't expand forwards, it will be hard to protect the choke, so I added the sunkens. This felt weird when I did it (and deserves a "lol"), but the option to remove the ramps felt meh.

I'm feeling quite good about this map now, gonna try to playtest it with humans soon. It might not be perfect, but I'm not expecting any gosu players to use my maps anyway :) (though it would be fun of course)
MorroW
when i look at this map it seems like ur new to mapmaking and i like alot that u think of the balancing much (doesnt matter if u think good or not, many mappers just make for the decoration or creat something new without thinking much at all about balancing).
anyway i think that sunken wouldnt really effect the gameplay cuse i think every z would still expand foward in the fe (maybe not zvz in this map). so personally i would remove the colony but it still does improve the zvz game play (by creating longer games due to easier expand).
thinking of this simple backdoor expansion in tvp would be boring gameplay, terran could easy expand in all games since he only need 1 rax to block from zealot and dragoon. and then just expand behind. same comes to pvz, i think x2 expands will be doable in this. i would add some kind of colony close by it but still not blocking so zerg can x2 expand and still so t and p couldnt expand at backdoor without destroying the colony. cuse atm this map would be t>p>z i *think* so zerg could need that support
SiaBBo
Still make exp at 6 and 12? Yeh, i know some promaps have backdoor with gas but like loki, tvp suck there.

But just because layout. ^^
modified by SiaBBo
LasTCursE
i have an idea .. what about someone of the site pimp the map by him self then the result shoud be better :]
spinesheath
Great idea... -.-

We're not here to grab random people's maps and edit them, especially not if they are still active on the site. As long as the author of a map shows interest in his map, the goal is to help him improve his map himself.
jeb
Ok... I added 6/12 min only expos.

I also added sunks to the backdoor naturals because I liked MorroW's idea. Notice that the placement of the sunks also affects Zerg, so they will be interested in removing the neutral sunken as well, but aren't slowed down like T and P.

I've changed the map status to "final" and added an observer version. If somebody wants to improve the map further, the map edit password is "1".

I should stay away from making Starcraft maps I think... It forces me to concentrate so much and consider all possible situations, which makes it hard to sleep! :)
NastyMarine
sorry but this map looks very discombobulated.
spinesheath
"discombobulated" - wtf? Why is that word not in my OALD, but in the internet dictionaries?
jeb
Hehe, there should be a prize for the most complicated word of the day.

Anyway, I've uploaded yet anohter version (this is edit #7). After some testing I wanted the mains to be bigger for T/P, so I decided to remove the main choke. This meant that the new choke is by the harassable natural, and requires B+S to be completely blocked off again. So, since it's harder to block off, it means that the platform natural is no longer a safe bet, and therefore the extra sunken is no longer needed.
Nightmarjoo
What is OALD? I'm familiar with discombobulated, but it's like "flabbergasted", everyone knows it but no one ever uses it lol.

Did you miss what I was saying about the main choke needed to be smaller, because you've now made it larger and impossible to wall off thanks to the creep colony. I'm pretty sure pvz is now impossible, tvp is now impossible.
jeb
Mmkay... One person says it's too large and one person says it's too small.

If you want it smaller, how small should it be? Blockable with only rax, or only a depot? Also, the creep that you see in the image is not the same as it appears in-game (the image is taken from SCMDraft).
Nightmarjoo
The choke size is up to you, depending on what kind of openings you want to allow/force.

That's how the creep will be in game lol.
anotak
TvP on the current version of the map is Terran bending over every single game and taking it from the Protoss.
Nightmarjoo

modified by Nightmarjoo
jeb
--

How is pvz impossible? For protoss? The map should be quite good for reaver+sairs due to the distance hydras need to walk to catch up with them. The front is blockable with the standard cannon FE. If it's any race that should be disfavored on this map it's possibly terran, because it could be difficult to push out, but I'm not sure...
modified by jeb
Nightmarjoo
If protoss goes 1gate or 2gate in main they basically auto lose to lings running in. If they FE, they can't actually block out lings from running through because 1. the main choke is so wide 2. creep prevents walling by the main choke 3. If you "wall" at the nat choke, lings can just run through unless you place probes between the buildings. But then, having your cannons that far won't help you vs a drop rush or vs mutas, forcing you to make more cannon than normal. Protoss could just wall his nat choke off with 2gates, but it seems to me that zerg already gains a huge advantage by going 9pool. On the shorter distance, the 9pool comes sooner, and on the longer distances z has more time to get lings, making 2gate largely ineffective I'd think.

Terran can basically play normally while walling his nat choke, but it's pretty far from his scvs, so early pressure from protoss will be harder on him since it'll be harder to replace repairing scvs before tanks come out, and even then, since you have no highground advantage, protoss could still with good micro kill your tank, which would effectively end the game. Thus, the only "good" opening you have here as terran is to wall off your nat choke, and get siege before making cc. It's very risky to do an fd rush, and anything else (2fact build) would be weaker than usual I'd think for longer distances, on top of the nat choke being fairly small so protoss can prevent vults from doing any real damage. If terran is confined mostly to FE with siege, protoss it seems could just do 3zlot + shuttle rush with his goons for an all-in win, or he can just safely double expo faster than normal, putting himself quite ahead of terran. Placing two or three goons in the area behind the nat prevents terran from catching up with a tank drop, and since all three of protoss' bases are so close I can't see vult drops being terribly effective, so terran'd be just kind of auto-fucked. An aggressive 2fact build might work, but it seems like that'd be hard to pull off given that protoss gets to harass and pressure terran so easily, which is why I think terran is forced to just go FE with siege. Or just have really insanely good micro, I guess. But if terran has really good micro, odds are he's playing vs a protoss who has really good micro if they're similar in skill, leaving terran mostly fucked as far as I can see.
MorroW
make the main enter wallable by 2 gateways, like in Lurker.
place the neutral colony outside the main (maybe like colloseum), that way will 2gate proxi goon be harder and protoss and terran can still wall and zerg can still make his sunken.
added a GMC where the neutral colony should be. btw dont use neutral sunken in this situation, will just make it annoying for the others.
and now pretty much everything will work like normal just that its garanty everyone FE always and makes the wall in the main choke.

like it is now 2gate will just hardcore own cuse of the distance and huge choke, 9pool speedling or even 12pool will also be so good cuse its very hard for protoss to wall.
but with my "changes" the lings cant really outmicro the zealots cuse the choke isnt as tight and its blocked by gate(s). and the 2gate goon wont work as good cuse terran can wall and fast siege tank.

now early game is passed ends up with fe by everyone. that doesnt mean rest of map is balanced. now i just think terran will beat protoss cuse his second expand is very safe outside his base. also he can simple turtle out of his path (+goliath) and get the protoss next to him by putting tanks behind his nat, meanwhile he got his real army outside. and if a drop comes, he just send some vultures (no need for drops).

sinse the middle is wide and large and the paths to middle are long and tight, protoss must keep all his units in middle to keep it. if he get forces down to his path he lost the game. and these sides expoes are pretty risky vs drops,


well i could very possible be wrong with all this.
i dont know about the tvz or the zvp.
Nightmarjoo
It should play similarly to Colosseum in some aspects I'd think, and that map isn't t>p is it? If anything, Colesseum gives terran more harass possibilities than this map does.

I'm not sure if forcing protoss to go 2gate every game actually helps lol, but I spose it's better than being able to do nothing =/
SiaBBo
I think colosseus is pretty good with balance. :b
jeb
Ok, while your comments are helpful, it's getting more and more speculative, so this version (number 8) is my final edit. You may edit it further if you like, the password is "1".

So... I agree with Nightmarjoo that in PvT, the Terran player will be pressed early on, so I've extended the cliff to protect the upper choke. The terran will need to block it off using B+S (the water formation in the south-west is because I couldn't figure out a way to build B+S to completely block lings without it), but the cliff will at least give him the advantage of not needing perfect micro to survive.

Later in the game, toss should still have a fairly good chance to survive, but it's hard for them to deny scouting. This means that many strategies can be hard to pull off, since they often rely on surprise. One way to fix this is maybe to make the middle tighter (to decrease terran manoverability), but I'm not sure if it will improve the map.

In PvZ, I think the protoss player may have a small edge. First he should be able to defend with forge first and placing two cannons, like in almost all pro maps these days (Katrina, Colosseum, Othello, Andromeda etc). Later on, the three gases will be very powerful (compared with low-gas maps such as Hwarangdo). And finally, Zerg will have a hard time to deny scouting. All this being said, I still think it should be fairly even.

In TvZ, the zerg player can use the extra creep + lings to deny SCV scouting, and will be able to fetch three gases. One of these is easily tankable, but that location is also counterable with mutalisks. The extra creep will at least give zerg the option to wait with the exposed expo for last.

All in all, I hope some of you will find this map enjoyable :)
modified by jeb
SiaBBo
I dont like that you can destroy natural behind it.
You cant even make turrets behind minerals. -_-

Even marines can attack workers behind that cliff.

What that sunken is? It wont make anything in game? It is just annoying to protoss and terran. And why zerg go make something there?
modified by SiaBBo
jeb
The creep allows zerg players to take the safer expansion and still have a position to place sunkens that will protect both the expansion and the main (vs early MnM attacks).

I'll playtest this as soon as possible... all my friends who aren't on vacation at the moment have like 30 APM or less.
Nightmarjoo
I can help test the map with you if you want. My apm is a bit over 30 ;)
SiaBBo
CMON! You can be a good player even if ur apm is not 300. -_-
Nightmarjoo
lies!
SiaBBo
Np. If ur amp is like 300 you just spam and it have nothing to do it in game. But if u fast click 20 gateways and make zealots and goons and make it faster its good. But all spam is just so stupid.

What you get if u number nexus 1, probe 2, another probe 3 and then just click they? ._. Sometimes i do this but it sometimes gives vibes.
spinesheath
Sure, APM is not everything. But with 50 APM you cannot win against a good player. If you are strategically/tactically better than your opponent and have very good timings you will also be able to win with less APM than your opponent. But if you two are the same level, the one with the higher APM can micro more in battles and even do some other stuff in the mean time like macro or dropping your eco etc.
SiaBBo
I was talking about spamming. ;b
Nightmarjoo
300 apm isn't necessarily spam :O
Nightmarjoo
Most of my opponents have higher apm than me, and I still win most of the time.
SiaBBo
But if ask me it is stupid to say: I HAVE HIGHER APM THAN U OMGOMG IM SO BETTER.
spinesheath
If it's 30 APM vs 180 I don't think it's stupid.
jeb
The last replay is from another version of the map, where the front natural is harder to get. Not sure if the replay says anything about the map, since we're not so gosu...
MorroW
less than 100 apm and u got a bad player ^^
jeb
Yeah, and idle shuttles *shrugs*
Nightmarjoo
Idle shuttles are my favourite kind of shuttles.
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