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Last update for (2)Master and Commander : 2016, 10, 29 21:50
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3173 (2)Master and Commander 128*128Grief_Stricken4.2finalground

The map has been rated 67 times and got a total of 282 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


Grief_Stricken
my way to beat the heat.i can't stand it any longer.i thought if i walk for awhile on a ice landscape would make me feel better.does it helps?...no,not really.at least not for a long time
Capn Awesom
I like it, the snow tileset usually looks very sloppy imo, but you pulled it off very well. And the ice section in the middle looks like it would be great for big battles
neobowman
Third expo looks a bit far away.
Excalibur
Hm
Id make the ramp be on the other side an dhave the current nat as is or as an island. Currently I dont like how if you get contained your cut off from the rest of the map. If you dont want to switch the nat how about a minblocked back door ramp or something?
SiaBBo
Where zerg get 3rd gas?
NastyMarine
for god sakes change the name rofl
NastyMarine
lovely map though :)
Crackling
lol its MAC

i gonna make a PC :O
LostTampon
nice execution

yeah as the others stated the distance to the third expo is a bit too long... can't image how a terran in tvp can get out of his nat
Nightmarjoo
I think the nats are too close, an inevitable if the map really is 128x128 without making it wider. I'm not sure since I haven't played the map though, but it just feels like later on in the game one player will have a really hard time getting to his expos, because the other player will be able to move his forces close enough on ice such that he can prevent the first guy from leaving, especially tvp. However I'ts not a critical problem, and may not be a problem at all, just a feature, as it just forces players to rely much less on their mains than normally, and that's part of the concept anyway. It probably will be annoying anyway, with your main later on not being as useful, as it'll be hard to move from buildings in your main all the way to the northern most expos.
Because of this, I think it will be a hassle on the players, and I think there are two things you can do to improve it.

1. Greatly reduce the size of the mains, and modify the 3rd base so that it's clear to the players that their mains are not as super central as they normally are, while opening the middle up, allowing players to be able to reinforce their expos with a lesser chance of being molested on the way by enemies on the ice; and you'd be modifying the 3rd base by reducing that silly cliff, repositioning the minerals closer to the edge of the map, and just generally constructing the expo to be building/supply friendly.
I prefer this option, because I feel it not only better retains the map's concept, it accentuates it.

2. Add a second entrance to the main facing northward, like in Nasty/tk's (2)Marja. This makes the main's large size not only actually useful, but necessary to ensure enough room to place buildings so that you can easily use either entrance. This makes the 3rd gas far closer also, and makes the whole concept work far better for more normal and standard play. It however deviates from your concept more than the first option, I think.
Grief_Stricken
you' re a joker like no other,nmjoo -_-

nasty tried with marja to set a different course than i did on this map. firtsly,marja has a 96/128 size - this is 128/128map.that means between marja' s mains there isn't so much space like between the mains of this one - don' t let you distract by the sheep -,-.because of this,but also because the path from the south to the north is blocked in the middle by these minonlies(which i doubt if they work in game - because they are so near,and whoever will own them will block completely the N-S connection...but that an other story)the second entrance make sense(on marja).once more because the map doesn't have so many expos like this one,and once the middle blocked you can' t expand on ground - on marja.let' s recapitulate:

on marja :
~ the path N - S is narrower than on m&c.on m&c you can call the big ice surface in the south/middle,a path
~ the path N - S can be blocked with buildings on the minonlies & because of the buildable terrain; on m&c you cannot block the path;no obstacles like expos,neutral buildings etc;also unbuildable terrain

so that's why a second main accesss isn' t a must.only in case i wanna encourage a macro gameplay from the start.this is your plea for normal.standard for who,you? i cannot preach that people should try new ideas,but myself deliever stale news.this is not my intention! the idea that even after you expanded toward the top,you must be in check agaist an attack from the other main is in my opinion a interessting feature in the game - which you cannot find on many maps,btw.once you own any of the expos you will have enough room to build also there production-buildings - in case u want!

those who suggested to transform the minonly into a nat,and the nat in a island/whatever need to think also about the consequences if this happens;btw,i doubt they thought about.the entire ice surface(the big one)would become useless;except a small path from the one minonly to the other.a terran will block his choke for sure in the early game with buildings,and the only way to him will be over the route in the north.z/p will have only the ice area in the north to use it in their own advantage.that' s simply not good enough for z/p it would be < t - and that' s not what i want!and the idea with the second blocked ramp is also wrong.because sooner or later you will have to defend your main from 2 opposite directions.and i doubt that many players can handle this successfully.i mean i'm open-minded for new ideas/concepts; but this map isn' t a lab rat!! a good,smooth playability is always my first care!

a short statetement about the 3 gas - 'cause some mention it.i give u all a hint.where is the 3 gas on luna when both player start from the same hemisphere(these means both start on N or both from S)??? i guess it more than obvious what i mean.if you can play only money or macro maps this is your problem,not mine.however it's not a valid argument against a map,so i won't take it serious.sc is interessting and fascinating because you can win on evry map by using dif.strats,not only one.KEEP THIS IN YOUR MIND,ONCE FOR ALL!

and nmjoo - this is the smallest size that i ever used on my maps for mains.there is no way to make them smaller,only if i want to change the whole concept.why should i want this? there is no good reason!and the cliff on the minonly isn't silly - sooner it's a strategic element.other maps have this strategic element on their nats(sattarchasm,lt).on this map it's on the minonly,why not?just because u dont like it...grouse(r)?!

and in the meantime it becomes somehow hilarious.i mean when you commenting my maps you give your fancy full scope - it's amazing to watch you closely.you must realize how alone you are in you despaired quest for flaws;kinda lust.however i can't remember you have been ever able to attest in any way your presumptions.
Crackling
sry joel, grief is right here t.t
Nightmarjoo
That cliff is silly because it takes up so much space, imo.

I don't understand your last paragraph, can you reiterate?

The mains in this map are probably two times as large as the mains in Faoi, and the mains in Faoi are a little larger than necessary.

How many times have you played the map with a human? It really felt fine to move all your forces up the entire map to defend your expos, then have to run all the way back down just to stop a drop in your main, while they kill your expos since your army is out of place? This is too ridiculous for it to be true. I can't see it being fun or practical to have to run up and down the entire map, all the while giving your opponent chances to attack your bases and/or your army all at multiple locations, with you either running around like a chicken with its head cut off dealing with the incursions, or just letting your stuff die and countering your opponent. So, the map forces either turtle gameplay, or games where it is a race to finish off your opponent before/while they finish you off. Is that fun?
Johnny B.Goode
I like it.Very cool design + great execution,like always.I can't wait to play it.Btw,have you watched the HoRRoR replays that i posted? If not check the Replay DB.Tell me what you think about them
Grief_Stricken
no,i didn't.but thx - i will do that
LasTCursE
something i like in grief's maps is they are very symetric and good loking :)
Grief_Stricken
nmjoo,you talkin' alot of weird stuff now - ungrounded funny theories."The mains in this map are probably two times as large as the mains in Faoi, and the mains in Faoi are a little larger than necessary." - looks like you cannot appreciate sizes from the picture;so don't do that again.if you would be right faoi's mains would be def. too small.but in fact these mains are,if any 10% bigger than in faoi.if you don't believe,test it.

and fun is always subjective.for you is fun to swim in resources,to have easy defendable expos & if possible only pushing in game.the typical macro gameplay - i call this boring.and macro maps like python have basically no strategic elements.the only strategy is in such maps what tech i use & how fast i expand.the map itself doesn't offer any particular strategic elements.gogogo - if you like it!

i like more complicated maps where evry decision can lead to consequences in game;where you cannot expand whitout thinking to cover your ass behind ya.in evry map that i play i want the particular strategic element(s) - and not playin' the same shit over & over again,just under different names.

what's so hard to understand in that chapter.i meant it is kinda hilarious how u tryin' to find troubles in my maps.you ground your theories on presumptions & invalid facts(like - mains are too big).and was you ever able to prove your words? i can't remember...
LasTCursE
sry for bumping old map but why do you lock your maps i can't see how they look from closer view with scm draft 2 :((
HoboRobo
And I thought I saw already everything about maps.Omg!
Nightmarjoo
Come on grief, how fun can a map be when you can hardly leave your base for fear of being countered? Not only that, but the pathing from nat2nat is incredibly linear.

And no ovy spot. You force zerg to clump ovys in his main basically zvt, which is really annoying and makes scouting harder.

The map doesn't work at all with modern gameplay, and I mean that's fine all-in-all, except that 99% of gamers play following the modern gameplay trends (because they tend to be better), which means you only made your map for a small handful of people to play, and what's the point of making a map very few people can appreciate?
Grief_Stricken
what's all this fuss about, nmjoo? i thought we have this kind of discussion behind us. i suppose i make it very clear in the past that my maps are not trend based but rather concept based. i have nothing against those which use to make their maps under the influence of some fancy promaps, people should do whatever makes them happy. but for myself i see no reason to make a map which plays like 100 others before,or nearly. that's not a true challange for me - i'm not tryin' to be trendy, nor to copy previous works. my aim is to do something that gives the feeling to those who play my maps - i never play something like this before. on the other hand i try to preserve in every map an unstrained playstyle, which means i not push people to play crazy stuff. if you don't like this, well that's ok with me - feel free to play whatever u like. still disagree about what is better in the end - only because something is new is not necessarily better. it doesn't means i am against new influences, so far they helps to improve my ideas - and not simply for the reason to support a lobby.

what you talking about - no ovy spot? there are alot of them. ok, not on evry exe & the nat but so what, that's not necesary. you know precisely where the other player is, so you don't need to scout the entire map, send a drone(as z) to his nat if you wanna know when he expand or attack - what so unusual about?

"how fun can a map be when you can hardly leave your base for fear of being countered?" - this was pretty immature. if your afraid & the other too, who will finally wins? i guess the one who's not afraid. skill & strategy should decide evry game, if you decide to stay in your box don't blame me for that - and that's valid for evry other map too. i tell you, even average players won't have troubles to adapt on this map
Nightmarjoo
your first paragraph: I'm sorry, you're right.

I disagree with your second paragraph, but I suppose it's a matter preference. Few modern pro maps don't have the ovy spot, (colosseum, blitzx), but I find it really annoying when I play zvt to play on maps without an ovy spot atleast at the player's nat. Terran has a lot of options for opening, and zerg must mostly react differently to each one, but it can be impossible sometimes to figure out what terran is doing before it's too late causing z to outright lose the game, depending on the scenario. Having an ovy spot negates this somewhat, makes it easier on zerg, less rock-paper-scissors-esque.

Your third paragraph I think is flawed because it compares your map to other maps, which mostly all have longer nat2nat distances, and closer expansions, the differences in this map I think are what cause this to be more of a problem here than in most maps.
Grief_Stricken
some claim that the map is bad for z;sry if i don't make the ultimative z maps like others - but there are in this game 2 other races about i have to care too,nmjoo.

now check the rep and see for yourself how bad it is for z...
SpoR
nats are too close and too straightline to get to.. This makes terran better.

I think you should crack the ice half way up or something. And add a small pathline on the edge of the mains to go up and around.

Not only will this take some of the straightline out and give more options for engaging/flanking a frontline attack.

It will free up some proxy,cheese,rush strats.
modified by SpoR
SpoR
Here, either of these is what I meant:
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Image and video hosting by TinyPic
modified by SpoR
Johnny B.Goode
Are you serious,SpoR? You want to sacrifice the main battlefield?
Testbug
lol spot that would be too tight and very siegetakish xD
oh, Grief, NE and NW wide ramps sux, what about double normal ramps?
neobowman
Just so people know, I have taken the name of Master Commander Sheep on iccup. My smurf account name is MCSheep.
Grief_Stricken
good choice; may the sheep be with u ^^
Crackling
i wouldnt remove the sheep, spor
Starparty
this would make the map really cool:



also making paths from middle exp to the ice above and connecting it with ramps both left and right to the corner expos
modified by Starparty
Grief_Stricken
Updated with the latest version
Replays


--Qed_Bisu vs ArtZerg(1on1, 1.16)
--ReDToSS vs scoleiosis(1on1, 1.16)
--Diemond vs bleeber(1on1, 1.16)
--Z]e[RaToOL vs Freck(1on1, 1.16)
--Qed_Bisu vs EvilZergling(1on1, 1.16)
--QEd)RE vs i_shaLL_kiLL_U(1on1, 1.16)
--Qed_Bisu vs WWB(1on1, 1.16)
--Sky.Korean vs specialmild(1on1, 1.16)
--ki)control vs exitiabilis(1on1, 1.16)
--Div(OD) vs PowerMix(OD)(1on1, 1.16)
--Rancores vs ibats(1on1, 1.16)
--Cabbage.OnFire vs PowerMix(OD)(1on1, 1.16)
--Cabbage.OnFire vs PowerMix(OD)(1on1, 1.16)
-- vs (1on1, 1.15)
--nGU.Fear vs papa_pi(1on1, 1.16)
--LG[Spec] vs ThinkTank(1on1, 1.16)
--RedW4rr10r vs vazze(1on1, 1.16)
--prusha vs TacoTactics(1on1, 1.16)
--Style.GoSu- vs prusha(1on1, 1.16)

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