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Last update for (4)Plutoid_v7 : 2008, 08, 14 16:33
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3181 (4)Plutoid_v7 128*128djdolber0.3betaground

The map has been rated 50 times and got a total of 14 points
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Comments:   GMCS (2 elements)


djdolber
The idea here was to build a fairly standard map, and what i wanted to try was the double gas geyser in the main as they have been discussing for Starcraft 2... The map has got a big open area in the middle and islandexpansions at 3 and 9 o clock.. Other than that it follows the basic formula.. Main with a ramp and a natural..
neobowman
Double gas at the mains? I've tried it once in my maps and it wasn't so good for balance.
anotak
baekmagoji did it
(which wasn't balanced either)
djdolber
note that its 2x 2500 gas in the main..
neobowman
Baekmagoji was a 2v2 map so balance doesn't affect as much it doesn't matter if it's 2500
djdolber
So in what way is it unbalanced with 2 gas in main ? I guessing it has to do with zerg becoming strong early with mutaharass or lurkers..
neobowman
Yep pretty much. You can get one base lair as zerg that way. Really quickly too.
spinesheath
Early 3 gas protoss is not very nice for z, though. And if a protoss manages to take another main he becomes REALLY scary.
Imo double gas doesn't give z that much of an advantage as many people think. Z wants many expansions with 1 geysir, so that the other players can't get them as easily.
anotak
what the fuck? Baekmagoji was not a 2v2 map, it was 2 player 1v1 map

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/maps/160_Baekmagoji

Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 11-3 (78.6%)
ZvP: 8-4 (66.7%)
PvT: 17-8 (68%)
spinesheath
Obviosly a great example of how kor map balance > bwmn map balance.

Btw I guess neobowman mixed that up with Hannibal.
modified by spinesheath
djdolber
Map has been updated.. now a new min-only and more of a choke right before the middle, gas in the middle expansion and smaller islands..

Feedback on the choke ? is there to much walls ? Maybe it should be more open, it will probably favour a turtling terran but there are lots of space to do drops etc...
djdolber
After 2 tests and a little discussion its obvious that the rescources needs to be reduced, and maybe open up the choke, right now it plays like Andromeda on steroids kinda...
djdolber
Updated again ^^
djdolber
Made the map less turtlish hopefully...
illisid
are you sure there are no holes behind the naturals?
djdolber
There are still holes, small but still holes.. What is the usual method of fixing holes ? Is it common to use illegally placed doodads ? if so then it should be easily fixable..
spinesheath
Single tiles from the tileset palette usually work better than illegal doodads and look MUCH better if done correctly.
djdolber
Ok, then i will do that, but first, balancing issues and general design/layout must be finished... any balance/layout feedback ?? :)
Nightmarjoo
The more "free" gas you have, the more the map leans towards p>z, t>p, and t>z.

Explanation: FE helps balance pvz because it gives protoss more gas to use. More gas = more ht, more sair, more ups, more archon, more goons, more dt, you can afford to use more units for harass, and with more gas heavy units you can be in a position to expand sooner.

tvp is hard to say for sure. More gas = more tanks, but then protoss also has more gas for arbiters/carriers. Also, protoss can more quickly use extra gas usually. But, in a map where the extra gas is free, it helps terran a lot more than it helps protoss because they get more tanks, quicker factories, which allow them to push out and expo faster than usual, whereas protoss isn't really particularly helped/hindered.

In zvt, a 3rd gas is critical vs FE terran, because zerg needs 3gas just to compete with a 2gas terran, if you give terran a free 3rd gas, zerg just needs that much more gas for lurkers and defilers just to compete, let alone to make up for the extra defilers and lurkers lost to the extra tanks/science vessels, on top of needing more scourge for the extra science vessels and dropships.

Looking at your map, a close 4th gas just makes tvp that much easier, but the double gas islands help protoss a lot too, so I dunno.

Nothing helps zerg, and the open middle just makes lurkers not particularly effective, so I'd say definitely t>z.

The double gas islands help protoss still, so I'd say definitely p>z the later the game lasts.
djdolber
Interesting indeed.. I feel the double gas puts more preassure on the players as it seems to escalate everything, im thinking about what would happen if that double gas in main could be compensated by lowering the amount of gas even more, so that in main you have 2x1000 gas or something similar, wich would force players out of their base faster for gas, but, still opens up opportunitys for early gas usage.. or, maybe an experimental low gas in main, like you have one at 4500 and one at 500 or something similar...

Or maybe ill just remove the double gas all together, cause other than that maybe the map has some potential...
djdolber
Ofcourse, i would want to avoid the balance shift towards p>z, t>p, and t>z if possible...
djdolber
What if i would help zerg out by placing neutral sunkens, and possibly try to help toss as well by altering the map in some way... suggestions ?
djdolber
Maybe something that will delay an FE terran and protoss, like neutral creep blocking the natural ?
spinesheath
There is an "edit" button, you don't have to quadruple-post.
djdolber
lol ill keep that in mind sorry.. ^-^
Nightmarjoo
They don't need to FE since they get a free 2gas.
djdolber
Any thoughts on the update ? opinions ? balance issues ?
SiaBBo
Arcadia clone. :)
anotak
Nightmarjoo, if T>P due to double gas in the main, how would you explain the Baekmagoji

PvT: 17-8 (68%)

not trying to contradict you, what you're saying seems quite logical, it's just that for some reason Baekmagoji is P>T for some reason. Is it due to the increased minerals as well or what
djdolber
I can see the similarities, but its not a clone since i never saw Arcadia before, but.. yeah, i guess almost what ever you do it has been done before one way or another..
Nightmarjoo
lol. I honestly have no idea anotak :D I can make vague guesses, but I don't really know for sure. I never watched games on this map, and I only played it once, and it sucked. I remember carriers were strong on the map, and the fast gas allowed protoss to get carriers quickly, which the map augmented, but I'm not sure why the extra gas wouldn't allow terran to counter carriers easier than usual -_-
So yeah, I dunno, ask on teamliquid or something lol.
neobowman
Ouch, my bad about baekmagoji. Thought you were talking about a two player map. I always get the names messed up. Also, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=65401 for the balance issues of the shinhan proleague maps. Including baekmagoji.
spinesheath
Yaya, as we all can see, korean mappers are gods at balancing -.-
djdolber
Ok so obviously this map is similar to the map arcadia, wich i was not aware of, so i have to change it somehow to free it from being stamped as an arcadia clone... Zz.. lol
Nightmarjoo
I don't like the shape of the mains. It's a bit messy at 3/9 imo.

To deviate from arcadia, perhaps remove the min onlys and replace them at 3/9 as neutral expos?

The nats appear tankable, you should imo either exemplify the harassability of the nats by increasing the cliff size (leave room for turrets), or completely remove the cliff.

All-in-all, the map seems to me to be kind of messy. I liked the way the map was before more, I think you had more to work with in that version.
djdolber
I agree abit i think i will branch the map and save this layout for something else that will change to not be like arcadia, and revert to the one with basilica walls at 12 and 6...
djdolber
I have added some differences from arcadia that also imo makes the map more interesting..

1 Your ramp is not protected by a secondary choke, and you how have the min only right outside of your ramp, but the nat with gas is conveniently placed inside the choke outside your ramp.

2 the nat has a lot of minerals, the gas-nat has less minerals.

3 the main has an area similar to andromeda where an area is blocked of by a neutral, and that location is also a dropspot for the minonly nat.. The buildings have been tested and workers cannot pass.

I also reduced gas and minerals on the 12 and 6 expos. I added space at both natural expos for drops, turrets, etc...
Nightmarjoo
Well now it looks less like arcadia and more like azalea :)
djdolber
like this one ? http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=282 Not a striking resemblance but i can se how the nat exp is similar... im still not happy with the map, it needs more tweaking.. i think the dropspot behind the minonly nat needs improving, and the choke into the gasexpo needs improving...
djdolber
Z find it hard to sunken up the nat minonly, and also lcks a good oviespot, so i thought id solve the problem by adding an extended wall from the 3/9 cliffs to make some choke and oviespot outside the minonly

Also, moving the startlocations closer to the ramp would make for shorter and easier scouting as well as easier to defend a cheese etc

modified by djdolber
Testbug
arcadia :O
Grief_Stricken
nOOOOOO!
LasTCursE
i don't know why this map has so many replays it looks pretty basic to me like in blizzard maps xD
djdolber
LasTCursE why do you complain without giving me suggestions on how to improve it ? thats just lame
LasTCursE
i asked why it have so many reps :?
djdolber
I have been asking for help testing the map
djdolber
mistake when uploading a replay, there should be a way to remove reps...
Testbug
1)you had a map.
2)you changed the design in the middle of the map
3)you still have the same map
djdolber
Testbug, yeah so whats your point ? The highground does make a difference..
LasTCursE
djdobler i think that testbug knows a lot more for map making than you. :)))
I agree with him its the same kind of gameplay ,but its something like decoration (i think) like in "Troy". :)
the dentist
I don't like the map. The far away nats seem too "straight" shaped, like they want to be geometrical but are badly made into "natural" shapes. That's how all the shapes on this map feel. Unless the balance is somehow godly I say throw it away.
djdolber
LasTCursE, well thats not the point, i think Testbugs maps are awesome.. i dont deny that he knows more, obviously, im pretty new here. Am i not allowed to change my map or whats the problem ?
djdolber
Lastcurse, since the ramps in the middle are highground, it makes a difference in gameplay, if you hold the highground, attackers on lowground has a 30% chance of miss when they attack.
LasTCursE
ok let me say it in another way "The Middle Changes A LITTLE the game play" is that better ? :D
LasTCursE
in my Little expereanse in the SCM Draft 2 i find that only with Mirror X-Y the maps look better than all mirrors together ;]
djdolber
Well thats a simple choice of taste, if you use the X-Y mirror you cam make rotational maps like othello, with all mirrors you can make mirrored maps such as andromeda, i chose this one for this map..
SiaBBo
lol lastcurse.

About the map. I don't really like maps where 1. natural dont defend ramp or 2. there is a natural without gas. That is just bad to zerg. It is pointless to take exp 1st hatch there cuz zerg needs that gas. So thats bad.

Natural is huge! When you make first watch to map you just think lol, othello clony.


Nat2nat distance is maybe too short(?).

I dont like middle. It's gonna be too "messy" in game i think.

I think this is like othello and troy in same map but it feasibility is bad.
Replays


--djdolber vs Shomei(1on1, 1.15)
--djdolber vs Shomei(1on1, 1.15)
--Shomei vs Monokeros(1on1, 1.15)
--Shomei vs Monokeros(1on1, 1.15)
-- vs 88)Triad(1on1, 1.15)
--littlechava vs li0n(1on1, 1.15)
--littlechava vs li0n(1on1, 1.15)
--Zizoo vs Tadzio(1on1, 1.15)
--Zizoo vs Tadzio(1on1, 1.15)
--littlechava vs djdolber(1on1, 1.15)
--djdolber vs iruian(1on1, 1.15)
--Iruian vs Sailence(1on1, 1.15)
--edahl vs Sailence(1on1, 1.15)
--Iruian vs edahl(1on1, 1.15)
--diabloX vs Sailence(1on1, 1.15)
-- vs (1on1, 1.15)
--diabloX vs s4uc3(1on1, 1.15)

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