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Last update for (2)Guarded : 2008, 09, 07 21:18
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3225 (2)Guarded 128*96MorroW0.4betaground

The map has been rated 44 times and got a total of 16 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


MorroW
can 2gate block nat

can 2rax2supply block main

only small units can pass middle
RaDiX
very boring imo.
MorroW
wooo! :D

so is blue storm?
SiaBBo
Why you start talking about blue strom?
LasTCursE
i think morrow can do better than this :)
NastyMarine
Oh i like this a lot
SiaBBo
Huge main.
MorroW
thanks nasty :)

siabbo whats ur point about "huge main"? i can see that my self i actually created this map

radix says the map is boring, look at blue storm it isnt any more special at all
SiaBBo
Again, why you start talking about blue strom? I like Blue Strom's gamestyle. :B
anotak
i like it actually, not boring at all
MorroW
nigthmarjoo post a real comment here please i miss those im tired of siabbos comments :(
Nightmarjoo
I actually laughed out loud at that :)
I'll comment after I eat and shower.
Nightmarjoo
Well to start I'd move the sls away from the edge a little bit.

Maybe put a hole in the nat formations to make it harder for scvs to get stuck?

The nat looks mnm rush-by friendly, and also looks like it might be hard on protoss for FE, and with the big main choke you force protoss to either 2gate or FE already.

I can't know for sure, but the 3rd gas seems too defensible for tvp. making the map turtly. I think this is accentuated by the rest of the map too. I think the map overall is very hard on terran for tvp. His pushes are weakened by the lowground middle being unbuildable, and no matter which way he goes protoss can easily go the other way. The 3rd gas being so easy to take and defend helps this, but I think forces boring gameplay. And I think it's too hard for terran to get a 4th gas, whereas protoss shouldn't have trouble expoing.

I think it's p>t z>t z>p. Flanking is easy, it's hard for the immobile race to expo imo. On bluestorm drops are necessary zvp lategame, and sometimes even zvt too at the mains, but here I don't think zerg really needs to do that here since he has no trouble flanking, retreating, running around, countering, etc, all of which can be difficult sometimes on bluestorm because of its tightness.
Well, I'm looking at bluestorm1.2 and loki2 right now and comparing, and basically what those two maps do differently is they make everything tighter, but add more alternate routes, so even though they are very linear (whereas this map is bilinear), it just works better, I dunno it's hard to explain.

I'll try and explain in/with bad theory-craft:
zvt zerg pressures terran, then backs off as terran starts coming out with a vessel and tank, zerg basically backs up to one of the big ramps and burrows his lurkers at the top of one, and terran has to carefully move tanks up, and all this while zerg has many opportunities to scourge his sv, run lings through either the middle or the other big ramp or bring more lurkers around the other ramp, either trying to counter if terran leaves a window, or a big flank on the terran force. The long distances, the zerg 3rd being so far from terran, and so close to zerg's nat makes drops and attacks hard on it, zergs can play very gas heavy lair builds here very well, or they can go for the hive tech and let terran move around more, and then abuse defilers on the ramps while going around the other ramp or through the middle. If zerg is doing well, I think it could be hard for terran to take his 3rd. Once he does take his 3rd, I think zerg can pretty easily bring lings around the map to harass it. Terran just has no strong point or choke to defend from, any place he picks zerg can easily go around it and counter/flank.
I feel this works the same for zvp, though protoss has shuttles and corsairs to combat this somewhat. I think reaver/sair is the best thing for protoss to do here, and he can transition into a ground army later if he wants, but terran has no reaver/sair to help him secure expos.
Terran also has no reaver/sair to help him against protoss, though tanks do help; terran should have no problem in getting his 3rd gas, but I think it's hard for him to push without giving protoss many windows to flank or counter.

Hm and I don't think the drop spots in the mains are necessary, because I think they help the already favoured race, z in zvt, p in pvt, and z in zvp =/

It seems to me that the expo layout is made for a linear map, like bluestorm, but the rest of the map's structure is setup for a bilinear map, ie a very non-linear map, and that they conflict.

I think the map's gameplay should be ok overall, but that the balance might not. I assume you meant to create this bilinear layout to create a map which should flow better than a turtly split-map map like bluestorm, but I think that it hurts the balance, even if it creates presumably more exciting gameplay.

I dunno, when I look at the picture it just seems that the highground plateaus and the lowground fields both have too much space. Look, there's just nothing in the entire lowground thing, and one measily expansion on the hill. No real chokes except at the very center, and that one doesn't really count since you can't use it for many units, both you and your opponent have no need to use it. If you removed it I think the map would still be z>p z>t p>t, it makes no difference, just helps scouting; but having it there just helps zerg a bit more, and makes a few timing rushes more viable, forms of zlot rushes and mnm sunk break type things I guess, but if they're expected then they oughtn't be terribly effective.

I just don't like the lowground gas expos at all. The only time something like that imo is needed is for a safe 3rd gas for zvt, but he already has one of those.

The nat cliff thing is interesting, but is either risky for gameplay, or won't be used at all, and I'm not sure which. The distances make me think it won't be used much, but I definitely could be wrong there. I think it's better to keep it though, since the few ways it could change gameplay would make things harder on the already favoured race, imo, so it either does nothing or helps, ie it doesn't hurt at worst lol.
Now while I don't care for the 3rd gas thing, it's not bad inherently. I just basically don't like anything between and including the lowground section, ie the entire middle of the map =/

If you agree with me at all, I'd reccomend perhaps scrapping the map and just using your main/nat/3rd concept and restructure everything else. Also, you might consider restructuring the main/nat/3rd too while keeping the concept, because it's possible that poorly placing/structuring them made it difficult or awkward to place the middle. I don't know if this is the case or not, it could be entirely false.

Oh and I don't care for the size of the main choke or the size of the nat, if I didn't mention that already. It could be fine though, but I just don't like it ._.
Crackling
i disagree
SiaBBo
I agree.
MorroW
made some changes

should favour terran more now
SiaBBo
I don't like idea with that natural. I always say that is imba. ZvT = zzzz... Some bunkers there with range = gg.
MorroW
u think a neutral building at the gap will help?
SiaBBo
3rd gas to zerg is pretty hard to get I think.
MorroW
why dont u answer my question lol
SiaBBo
It's ur map. Do what's the best.
MorroW
god just answer the fucking question or just simply shut up
im asking for your opinion "u think a neutral building at the gap will help?"

then you say yes or u say no

if i knew what was the best all the time i wouldnt need this site
Nightmarjoo
I don't know if a neutral at the gap will help, assuming that you mean a neutral building blocking the path from the 3rd gas to the nat cliff. It honestly is up to you, I don't know if it will effect balance at all, it's just a gameplay feature and I think either way will work.

The changes to the lowground gas expo are good. I think they help pvz a lot and help tvp a bit too. I think tvp might still be hard, I dunno for sure though. For tvz, I think it might still be hard, I dunno for sure though. I think you just made it easier on zerg than it already was for zvt.
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