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Last update for (4)Everflow : 2013, 02, 20 16:02
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3545 (4)Everflow 128*128Freakling3.2finalground

The map has been rated 54 times and got a total of 172 points
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Freakling
Version 2.02
Changelog:
- rearranged Nats
- most mineral lines made over
- moved NE Min only a bit southwards
- removed some of the ruins behind the main minerals so you can build 2 depots/turrets/pylons/cannons there
- changed ramps to 3rd gas a bit
- moooooore Eyecandy :P
entered for MOTM 03/09

I would like to hear some thoughts about ballance.
modified by Freakling
ProTosS4EveR
use edit fuction please, not new map
nastymarine
i looooooooooooove this map
Target
when this becomes MOTM, we're gonna have to remove that red crap in the middle ;).
spinesheath
I don't get to say this very often: Nice custom terrain! It looks quite naturally and there is very little blockiness. Didn't check for unwalkable stuff where it should be walkable, but anyways, nice job.
Freakling
So here's another update, duly to the beginning of MOTM voting.

Everflow, Version 2.03
change log:
===========
Since tanks shooting your nat from below are annoying at best, low ground below nat cliffs seems to marginally fail to contribute to gameplay... So I changed it...
- by replacing the lowground ruins partly by water
- reducing the width of the ramps to third gas epxpansions by two tiles
- and (though not really an issue) disabling tank dropability on the small patches of raised jungle at the nat entrances.
Crimson)S(hadow
the decor here is very nice
Freakling
Thanks everyone, I guess I should keep the deco and forego everything else in my next map.
modified by Freakling
frontliner
The giant zergling is imba, it gives green player advantage over others.

for the rest this map is very original!
Nightmarjoo
What's with the unbuildable crap in the mains around the minerals?

Why are your mains so big?

Why are your non-nat mineral formations so weird? Are they tested?

Why are the mains different? I'm talking about teal compared to red for example.

Your nats are crazy. Have they been tested? What about the 3rd gas expos? Seems like there might not be enough building space there to me.

Could you make the map a little prettier? :(

What's the point of the egg wall at the nat? Doesn't it just complicate gameplay and make stuff annoying? I don't see how it adds anything to the map, aside from add inconveniences. If you removed it and reshaped the nats, it seems to me that the map as a whole wouldn't at all be effected, so it just wastes space imo.

This map could be great, or it could be a complete failure. I'm not sure which. The image stuff is distracting, and I don't fully understand the map's concept, like, the point of the map. Spines saying the map looks good is a good thing, Nasty saying the map looks good isn't. I dunno what to think about the map, but it's pretty obviously gonna win motm3 unless something drastic changes, so I wanna make sure the map is as near perfect as it can get before I end up posting motm3 (in like, July etc).
Freakling
First of I really have to thank you for finally posting the first commentary on this map in like two months that has something like a relevance in it.

When it comes to making this map as playable, perfect and ballanced as possible, we have a common goal. Looking at the version number tells that it has already come a long way and it would be sad to stop halfway.
I have put a lot of work into it already and also did a lot of basic testing. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to create a perfect map without help and advise, mostly for the rather trivial reason that it is impossible to have an irrespective viewpoint towards one's own piece of work. Also playtesting cannot be done by one person alone, which is one of the reasons why I posted the map here.

Unfortunately it is not entirely clear to me what you mean with some of your concerns and, for you formulated most of them as questions and said things like "This map could be great, or it could be a complete failure. I'm not sure which.", it seems to me that you are not, either. So I decided to address them one by one (not neccesarrily in the original order) so we can hopefully find a common agreement about what has to be done in the next update.

"The image stuff is distracting, and I don't fully understand the map's concept, like, the point of the map"
- My guess is that you cannot understand the concept because you want to see more in it than it is.
I can only repeat that this map is meant to be really basic with only minor experimental elements in it. It is basically a huge open center with the expansions arranged around it, as most maps are.
On the other hand, I cannot deny that this map is to some extand a kind of humorous approach and that I wanted to irritate people a bit to make them _think_ and leave their habitual stereotypes before they form an opinion about the map. Now I am a bit axious that I might have been a little bit too succesfull with this aim...

"Could you make the map a little prettier? :("
- If you told me, what would be prettier in your eyes, I am pretty sure I would be able to make the map a lot more pleasing to your eyes :P
Remains one question: Do I want to?
(Be aware: Ironic exagerations coming:) Of course I COULD add in huge patches of terrain that look like deformed embryos of some wretched creatures or some random fractals that seem to immitate a shattered brain on a windshield. But in-game it would all just look like screen-covering areas of boring, mononotonous ( :) I definitely have to keep that misspelling :) ) wasteland.
I personally like a more random deco with small patches of different terrain, though I must admit that I drove that approach to unusual extends in this map. While it looks like a messy, chaotic swamp of random rags on the picture, which is, of course, not entirely far from how it is meant to be, it definitely looks better in-game.

"Spines saying the map looks good is a good thing, Nasty saying the map looks good isn't."
- Just out of curiosity: Do you want to tell me that Nasty uses to be sarcastic, that he has no idea what he is talking about or only that you and him do not share a common sense for aesthetics?

"Why are your mains so big?"
- Simple answer: They are not. Maybe the shapes of them, the placement of the start locations and all the water and cracked rocks around them make them appear bigger then they, in fact, are, though I must admit there are maps with smaller mains out there.

"Why are the mains different? I'm talking about teal compared to red for example."
- I am not sure, to which aspect you are refering here. The shapes are obviously different for NE/SW and NW/SE mains because the map is rotational symmetric and thus also the mains are roughly orthogonal to each other. The effective sizes (i.e. the stuff one can build there) are equal, however.

"What's with the unbuildable crap in the mains around the minerals?"
- All mineral lines besides those ones of the mineral only expansions are facing the edges of the map, have no cliffs behind them etc. and are thus safe, i.e. hard to harrass.
The "unbuildable crap" is meant to reduce the amount of available space in the mains to build turrets and other stuff behind and around the mineral line, thus weakening defenses and making the main minerals more vulnerable, e.g. for drops and Mutalisks. I cannot see any other harmfull effect in them, but maybe I just overlooked something

"Why are your non-nat mineral formations so weird? Are they tested?"
- Since "weird" is a rather subjective expression, I do neither exactly know what you mean nor what I should reply to this. All I can say to the best of my knowledge is, that they mine well, that they do not cause workers to go crazy, run behind the mineral lines or go uneccesarily long pathes. Anyways, changing mineral formations is something that is done comparatively fast and easily.

"Your nats are crazy. Have they been tested?"
- Which aspect? The mineral lines? The chokes? Since you excluded the nat formatins from being "weird" in particular ;P, I guess it is about the chokes.

"What about the 3rd gas expos? Seems like there might not be enough building space there to me."
- Depends on what you want to build there. It is presumably enough for a Nexus/Hatchery/Command Center and a good amount of defensive structures but, that is for sure, not suited to fit another main in. Nonetheless I already thought about changing them after my last update. Should be easily doable wit some modifications and relocating of the bridges, I think.


"What's the point of the egg wall at the nat? Doesn't it just complicate gameplay and make stuff annoying? I don't see how it adds anything to the map, aside from add inconveniences.
If you removed it and reshaped the nats, it seems to me that the map as a whole wouldn't at all be effected, so it just wastes space imo."
- I wanted the nat to allow easy and comfortable fast expanding for all races. Zerg can set up a pretty solid first defense with two or three sunken colonies and terran and protoss can do two structure wallins at all four nats.
On the other hand I did not want to make the natural too safe and macroish.
The double nat choke with the egg wall is meant to act as a kind of a semi-backdoor where one can sneak scouts and harassing units in and that provides a second path to attack the nat and main later on when heavy units come into play or, for the owner of the nat, to flank incoming forces and move units out comfortably.
Of course it is something that is not common, makes people think about tactics to exploit this and makes gameplay more micro orientated and thus more comlicated, if you like. I put some work into it to ensure that no serious pathing issue occurs from it, neither with the egg wall nor with a destroyed egg wall and walled off primary choke, and I think it works pretty well in this regard. Units might ocassionally run into the wrong choke first, but they normally do not waste much time finding the right way.
Of course, I could be wrong with all my assumptions and the egg wall is, simply as that, just terrible and useless, as you worry, but since this is the only really unusual, experimental feature of the map I am a bit reluctant too abandon it unless there has been some serious playtesting to prove a point, whichever it might be.

So to close - there will certainly come some or another update till july ;) and I am appreciative for every help I can get. What this map now needs more than anything else is some serious playtesting and I would be really thankful if you could provide one or another replay for me to work with.
modified by Freakling
Nightmarjoo
Well the thing about Nasty was a semi-joke, but it wouldn't be funny anway if I had to explain it, so I'll just let it be.

You aren't able to test the map at all? I'll try to get a friend to play some games on it I guess, since it'll be a motm map lol.
Nightmarjoo
o as far as decoration, specifically I mean the highground dirt patches at the edges of the spiral are blank and ugly
illisid
Beautiful!
I laughed when I first saw this and downloaded it for kicks. Played it with a friend and it turned out not to be a joke at all. The frequent changes from high to low ground in the middle make for ridiculously fun battles.

the only complaint I have is the egg wall. It doesnt seem to serve much purpose... other than early game scouting. Beyond that its easy to render it useless by an extra $100 of defense. It does absolutely nothing good for attacking, no attacking force is going to go down that path since it takes so long to kill the eggs and they would have to single file down it and the enemy would know anyway. And it only makes it harder to move your forces out of your base.
Nightmarjoo
Yeah
JungleTerrain
I think Freakling is British.

I'd like to play this map, looks pretty fun. In fact, I will.
modified by JungleTerrain
Nightmarjoo
You might hate me, but I edited your picture so I could see the map. I have your original picture if you want it for some reason ._.
Starparty
THANKS NM, FINALLY!
trcc
That blood was annoying lol
modified by trcc
Freakey
Noooo steeel Freeekeeee eeeet ;..(
Nightmarjoo
The stuff around the minerals is annoying. The nats seem fine, though the egg/mineral thing is kind of useless and creates pathing issues.

There's some awkward pathing in the middle, the weird tile stuff confuses units somewhat. I didn't get to extensively test it though.

I don't have any replays at the moment though, only played one game and my computer crashed a few minutes into the game, so I don't have the replay. I'll try to get more games on the map in the near future.
NastyMarine
this map is godly
Nightmarjoo
better not make it motm then
Testbug
this is a well known starcraft problem.
when you mix high terrain with low terraing, and you tell your units in a direct line, they'll get onfused and try to find a weird way (they ussually prefer to follow the low ground tiles, even if you placed ramp tiles, they won't use the ramp and will look for more low ground tiles)

so, instead of sending your troops to attack, they'll probably walk on a zigztg direction.

you can fis this by placing NOLY high ground on the nats and ONLY lowground in the minonlies and bridge expos.

the problem is the middle, your design will confuse the units.
MorroW
this funny middle is actually just really fucking increadible annoying ingame when playing 1v1. but most of u i guess didnt even think a second on how much ppl are gonna complain with middle battles if they play it.
as testbug said, the units will walk in strange paths and etc.

also all this extream terrain differences everywhere is just really annoying to deal with ingame and it doesnt look realistic at all

and the design of the mains calls for somewhat really akward to design a protoss or terran base, trust me urealyl dont want just 1 direction to build ur buildings on even if its large and round, round is really akward.
so basically make it less extream in terrain changing and make it more square mains so u can design ur base, i think u should insire urself from byzam

u can block the naturals with 1 rax 1 supply which is just ridicilously imbalanced. look at byzantium and take a minute to think why they didnt allow it there.
basically 14cc is insanily imbalanced then also in general terran is extreamly safe to fast expand and doesnt even need rine before cc vs even overpool. so just by allowing this walling calls for very huge advantage for terran in the start.
and u may think "ok so zerg can just 12hatch safe cause of distance and unbuildable middle" WRONG terran can pull off a bbs in this middle even an damaging 8rax that transfer into mech so easily so basically you gotta change so terran cant wall off this simple to the natural.

having this unbuildable shit behind the main may look pretty but its extreamly akward since most of the terrans building placement prioroty is just on the spot u put ruins.

another thing u must unallow is cannon rushes vs zerg behind the naturals, also u might concider more turret space but i think it might be fine

blues natural with cc and scanner is kinda akward since it just leaves 2 hex in between so u should maybe open up slightly.

i really dont like these 8 minerals with 1, either you put 1 mineral with alot or many minerals with 0, what u did here is just too extream.


12 o clock and 6 o clock between expo and natural u need overlord spot, seriously :P

at 12 o clock expo u got 2 hex that r unbuildable and it doesnt make sense

but besides from everything i said here, i think the map is really cool in visual and i think gameplay could be really awesome and balanced, its not so many new things but u got a basic map and u should add some more concept stuff. since u remake middle so it doesnt have that circus crap u will just have plain ground make u can fix some sword in the moon middle or i dont know tbh. ull think up something to have in middle :p
Starparty
good post
MorroW
about balance, kinda terran favoured still, yea... :[ around 55% terran in both mus
MorroW


modified by Nightmarjoo
MorroW
woot JPG so low quality picture sorry :p
testbug
i don't understand the "no so easy wallin cmon" thing, but yeah, this map NEEDS a pandabearguy
MorroW
u cant allow t to wallin natural with 2 buildings only cause that is imbalanced in tvz to put it in simple words. also imba in tvp
freakling
Thanks for all your effort, MorroW. Your posts were really helpful. I am already working on an update, but I do not have internet to post it atm. So it might take a while.
I will remove the egg walls. I still think that they make a great backdoor for a nat, but just not on this map. I will somewhat redo the nats again in the process, of course, including new mineral lines, relocating the ramp, removing some of the high ruins and switching to a 3-structure-wallin-choke.
I will also redo the 3rd gases, i.e. relocate and thin the bridges.

I will also work on a less annoying signature ;) (but not on less annoying deco, I save that for my next maps, that are also nearly finished, sorry).

And, no, no Pandabearguy, and no sorry for that FULL STOP.

The middle... I could reduce the ramps in the very middle and maybe replace them by ruins in the same shape... I will think about it. Unit pathing is by far not as cataclysmal as some make it sound like, though... (And don't tell me to make it more natural, OK? Com'on - on THIS map?!?)

I think the mains are really square already. But I see what you mean (the single building direction issue something). I think I get a good idea from your picture. I will also remove the ruins in the mains, seems to just annoy everyone, so why argue about this minor matter...

I hope this gives you all a faily good idea about what I have in mind. Fo somme dubious reason I am pretty optimistic that I can do it before Marjoo posts MOTM :P

What is your opinion about the 8+200 Minerals in mains, by the way? Should I keep them, make them 8 or 9 or something like 8+500 or 9+200/9+500?
flothefreak
this is impressive
LasTCursE
Crackling someone stole your map :O look http://intothemap.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=pds_melee&no=12083 ...
ProTosS4EveR
rofl
firstly, its not crackling
secondly, he give credits to freakling via writing
"센터지형은 http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=3545 참고했습니다.."
i don't understand korean at all but i'm sure there are credits to freakling
Testbug
lol!!!
frakling could you plase change your name? :P
everybidy thinks you are crackling xD
Nightmarjoo
Yeah lastcurse it's not a problem, he linked to this page. They copied one of Testbug's maps in the past though, and just converted it from desert to twilight and didn't credit him, made me laugh so hard.
freakling
*lol*
freakling
/> UPLOAD SPREE INITIATED...

Everflow, Version 2.04
======================
change log:
-----------

- reshaped and slightly downsized mains
- changed nat chokes, they are no longer wallable now, similar to Byzantium
- relocated the bridges to the gas expos and reduced width by one isometric unit
- used the space gained from the reduced mains and bridges to form a more comfortable gas expo
- adjusted mineral only exoansions accordingly
- replaced ridges in the very middle with ruins
- changed mineral counts to 8+500/6+500/7/6
- fixed "blind zergling" bugs on all ramps
- completely redone decoration on about 70% of the surface
- new, less annoying signature
- tried to put in the Pandabearguy, but it could npt stand the tropical climate, but I found an appropriate replacement :P

Special thanks to MorroW for directing my attention to Byzantium. That was exacly the inspiration I needed.
modified by freakling
Nightmarjoo
Nat chokes are imo too wide.
3rd gas formations should be imo rotated clockwise.
freakling
So you have an opinion but still no reason again :(

My opinion is that you are presumably right about the nat chokes and that that is only EPEI.

My other opinion is that it does not matter much if the minerals ta the side exps are clockwise and the gas counterclockwise or the other way around, but I tried both setups and found the current one somewhat more comfortable, interesting and positionally ballanced.
Nightmarjoo
OK SINCE YOU CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT ON YOUR OWN LET'S TALK ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS OF MY SUGGESTED CHANGES:

Shrinking nat chokes make pvz FE viable! That's a good thing! It also helps zvt! and tvz! and pvt! and zvz! and pvp! Why? It's more comfortable and best facilitates the current gaming trends! Do you actually open up your maps to play them at all? Do you even play sc?
What's EPEI mean?


Right now the backs of those mineral formations face a ramp, ie they face the way they're going to be attacked. This means, they are more vulnerable than they ought to be! It makes it unnecessarily harder to defense these expansions! Why would you do that on purpose aside from making it harder on the players? This just means static defense is a lot less effective, making turtling a lot more effective/necessary! That's bad/boring! You're sposed to facilitate the players' wishes to atleast some degree, else there's no point in making a map lol.
sTY_leZerG-eX
Wow freakling uv got yourself an enemy.
LOL
Nightmarjoo
nah I don't have a problem with freakling oO he's the only person making maps atm, he's my hero :(
freakling
calm down, I alredy said you are right about the nat chokes.
And the third gas expo can only either have the minerals where they are now or have the geyser there which would make the gas as exposed and vulnerable as the minerals are right now. I am not sure if that is more desireble. Just mirroring the setup would make minerals even more vulnerable because they would face the bridge then. I could add some water or other unbuildable terrain behind the mineral lines, but it would not help that much, I guess, and would also shrink the expansio again.
I also thought about adding a droppable cliff there, but again felt that there was not enaugh room to arrange it comfortably.
I think I will try some more possible setups again and then decide waht needs to be done.

Oh, and EPEI means "easiest possible edit issue" ;)
Testbug
can you mode the minonly or the bridge?
in the new version, the minonly deffends the bridge. that is a little turtleish.

but if the multy bridge isn't close to the minonly, then cambing at the minonly won't help.
Nightmarjoo
You made that up :O
Testbug
*camping
SpoR
newest version of the map looks awesome. My only gripe as a zerg player, is the lack of decent places to put the first couple of overlords.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

You need to put a little piece of high ground at the 4 green points, just at the start of the spirals (Where the rocky ground starts) near the 3rd min only bases.

This not only lets you see the corner mineral of the 3rd base, but it allows you to see when the enemy player is moving into the middle. There is not a safe place to put the lord besides right next to the nat really, and that's just not good enough.

Vs terran if you put a lord on the broken up high grounds around the nats and/or the bridges it's easily surrounded and picked off. Plus they don't really offer any good scouting to be honest.

Also, even these spots probably aren't good enough for diagnol positions. Maybe a spot in the direct center? Or a better terrain positon right outside the nats imo.
modified by SpoR
Freakling
Another update. Played around with the map again.

Version 2.05
Changelog
=========
- for happy goon micro: Played around with the high ruin textures removing all the doodad tiles that caused bad pathfinding
- for happy Nightmarjoos: Played around with 3rd gas formations and finally found something that mines good, looks good and feels good and ballanced for all positions
- for happy FE: Played around with nat chokes narrowing them and ballancing them out
- for happy Testbugs: Pushed the Minonly into the cliff to regain room to the bridges, removing a good chunk of buildable ground in the process. As a sideeffect it is also cliffable again
- For who ever wants to be happy: pushed Nat formations a bit away from choke.
- for happy Terrans, Proxi-Cheesers and other maniacs: Added buidable ground in the middle to compensate for the smaller min-onlies.
and finally - for really happe games: Ballanced out all formations (hopefully).

And SpoR: No. No maphack for Zerg. No. Thanks.
modified by Freakling
sTY_leZerG-eX
Dude I love this map, pro players should play this!
I want to see Jaedong vs Bisu here!
Freakling
So if no one has any complaints left, is it OK for you if I made this version final (aside from small bugfixes /if/ needed, of course)?
modified by Freakling
Trooper
i have a compant, pic broken,
Crimson)S(hadow
in my philisophy all maps in the future would need to be tinkered and modernized, therefore all maps are "beta"
Nightmarjoo
I disagree. I'm a firm believer that you can make a "perfect" version of a map/concept. That's not to say that it would be a "perfect map", because that's impossible. Nor would it not be possible to further modify/tweak aspects of the map, but then you would have a different map less truthful to its concept, or adhering to a different concept.
freakling
Nightmarjoo got it. That's the point. I have no idea what could be tweaked or optimized as long as no one finds any bug (e.g bad miner pathing on some expo) that would require fixing (which would nor be a significant change to the concept or any aspect of the map, of course).

So would you mind to tell me how perfect/imperfect this map is in reagard to its concept, please. If there is nothing seriously wrong any more I will set type to final - of course I will update the map if for some reason or another the need arises...
Freakling
mini update to 2.05e

- fixed some tiles
- added BWMN tag to the credits
- changed to final version
modified by Freakling
MorroW
just great map just 1 last thing u need to do to make it playable

u just need to fix the mains. the corner edge of map needs to be linear with the border of the map so u can have a nice main base design

please note how every pro map is like this and urs isnt

try design a main base without getting scvs stuck,, impossible
ProTosS4EveR
its horrible how maps became supersafe...
Moebius
Supersafe?
freakling
Update to 2.06.

Changelog:
==========
- Removed the rock edges from mains as Morrow Requested.
- Fixed some residual bad ruin doodad tiles, mainly on the northern ridge.
- changed NW Main mineral line because of bugging workers.


  
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