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Last update for (4)Schizophrenia : 2011, 08, 24 21:47
|mapID||Mapname (comments)||map size||Author||Rating||Type||play type|
|3634|| (4)Schizophrenia|| 128*128||Freakling||2.0||final||ground|
The map has been rated 49 times and got a total of 97 points
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|This one once started out as a strange spell map but meanwhile has become something completely different with only small spell residues...|
I struggled hard, but finally it is exemt from altitude bugs.
|it is a good map except the mains seem too small for me, and it seems like it would be hard to wall PvZ, I've played alot of pvz and to me, it seems zerg would have the advantage. I can't harrass their min only becuase its inside their base. Easily protected from drops.|
So the zerg has an eco advantage early game with 3 early expo to hydra it could be hard to stop.
I just played this map and lost to a zerg I could have beat on python.
He was able to abuse the map because theres no way to wall properly, the mains are too small to even create an efficient line of gateways for pumping units. Sometimes in PVZ the P might want to place more than 2 cannons which i found all there to be room for.....
modified by XeLious
|I like it man , again very good map |
|sTY its a good zerg map, a piss poor protoss map... and terran would find it even harder to wall than protoss does|
|main/nat chokes are too large (even with the current neutrals), and overall the nats suck imo.|
I'd be very surprised if you told me all of those spells work correctly without crashing sc.
Also, aside from the center ones to a very minor degree, I can't see the spells mattering at all.
I don't like your ramps, I don't really like all the curviness too, it just looks awkward/bad in game, imo, and potentially can bother pathing and stuff just like everflow does.
However, aside from these issues, I am inclined to really like the map. I wish you had made/posted it before the start of may, so I could vote for it in motm4, so motm4 would be less shitty.
I like the mains, the concept with the main/nat/min only though I'm concerned at how safe the min only is. Also, I reccomend removing a mineral block from both the nats and the min onlys; even 2 blocks from the min onlys wouldn't hurt.
And as always I like the attempt at using neutral spells, but I think you could do a little more with that.
|btw trooper the map is nothing like everflow aside from the retarded ramps.|
|you are the master of weird ramps man :D|
|Seems like I need a pretty long post to adress all the issues...|
First of: Spells in maps work and do not cause any sc crashs, even when not placed correctly. It has been done and tested so many times...
Another fact is, however, that ICCUP Avatar (unlike the Avatar version on this site, by the way) is for some reason corrupted. It should be apparent that one cannot derive any generally valid principles from that.
And I honestly doubt that there is any way to make a good map with spells, especially dark swarms at key locations. 100% cover is just too extreme... The result would always be lame, cheesy and most likely heavily imballanced.
Normally you would start a map and finally paste some spells where you want them. This map has already come down the opposite way. It started as a spell overcrowded strage experiment (basically the whole ridges in the middle - which looked very differrent and had no expos on them at that time - were covered in disruption webs while all the valleys were filled wit swarms. I think it is pretty obvious how fucked up, lame, cheesy, imballanced that was.
I then started to gradually remove spells were they were too annoying, imballanced or in the way.
Finally this is what came out of that process and some other grave changes in concept and layout...
You call my ramps retarded?
I actualy developed the organic ramp concept for a bunch of good reasons:
- they look in my honest opinion much better than straight ramps.
People are accustomed to straight ramps to a degree were they just overlook how boring and unnatural those look, aspecially when they are quite long.
Noone likes long straight lines of cliffs jungle, not even of temple or other structures - because they are ugly as hell, of course, only when it comes to ramps hitherto no one seems to be bothered by all these straight lines.
What is a ramp in Star Craft after all? It is but an area of terrain that has a terrain level border between or, in case of some designated ramp tiles, on it, that is normally unbuildable and ideally easily to recognize for players' orientation.
Does it matter if that piece of terrain, including the terrain altitude brink, is straight or curved? Of course not, as long as the criterion, the distinct perceptibility for the player, is not violated, which it is not on my ramps.
So in the end it all comes down to aesthetic perception which is very subjective an varied, besides being a matter of familiarization most of the time.
Moreover there is also a practical reason that tipped the scales for me to develope that concept: Straight ramps limit the feasibility of many map concepts to a huge degree because one has to adapt every cliff and ultimately the whole map to fit the ramp in, the ramp one wants or needs determines the look and layout of the map to a significant degree, while it should be the other way around.
With organic ramps I gain so much more freedom in designing maps, because they can be adjusted to almost every cliff line and can be used in every situation and angle I want.
Map concepts like Schizophrenia, Everflow or Mystique are, simply as that, impossible to implement in any adequate way without this kind of ramps.
You would immediately get my point if I could show you Schizophrenia 1.00 (but fotunately I lost it together with most of my newer map material when my hard disc crashed some time ago ;). That was an abomination of a map - disfigured by too many straight ramps...
An so I come to the third point: pathing.
It is a commonly known fact that ramps distort
unit movement - they do it in RoV, Peaks of Baekdu, Longinus... to be exact they also do it on LT. Has that anything to do with the exact shape of the ramps? Of course not! It is caused by the ramp tiles and by the altitude border on the terrain. Neither the tiles nor the altitude brink care about the macroscopic arrangement of tiles they are in, if it is a wide or narrow, a straight or curved ramp or hardly a ramp at all as in Colloseum or Enarey does not matter. It is all about the tiles.
And not only about ramp tiles, by the way, but also about bridge and reams of other mostly doodad tiles. Take a look at the bridge tile deco in the center of Medusa or move some units aroud the nat region of Chupung Reyong where so many doodas are. That is ugly, isn't it?
Can you make a scout worker go the shortest straight way from one base to another on maps like Peaks or Baekmagoji? I guess rather not.
So please stop claiming minor issues like that were a specific problem of my maps in particular. They are not and they definitely have nothing to do with curved ramps, at best it is about the pure amount of ramps.
I will either make this kind of ramps popular or keep them as special trademark of my maps, I would like it both ways.
Now dare question my ramp manifest ;P
About posting the map so late - I had two unfinished updates and did not want to post any new stuff before having them finished.
Why do you not add one of MorroW's newer maps or something, if you really want to? They have all been posted before end of April.
About to small mains: See here: http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=3608
These ramps are rather small but not too small. What make them a bit unacustommed for players when they play it the first time is that the start location is so close to the ramp and the rather high eccentricity. You have to make good use of your "backyard" here, similar to maps like Andromeda or Kathrina.
You should also not judge from just one game were both players did not know the map. I do not say that nats are fine, though.
I would like to see the replay, no matter how bad it might be, to see which issues occured.
There is no way to make the mineral only less safe. But I planned to reduce mineral counts, anyway, just wanted to hear another opinion, some of the nat minerals (at least right one at NNE, I think) have bad worker pathing, anyway. I think 9/7/5 or even 9/6/5 would be fine.
I am not sure so far, what to do with the nat and chokes. I want to keep the wide ramps and giving the nat more building space is not easeily done.
Mains can be 2 structure walled in, so I think they are tight enaugh. Protoss FE with Forge wallin and cannons is a problem, though. I know that...
modified by freakling
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|I decided my above comments were useless, but mostly they were commenting on the fact that your very large response to my very short comment came across as being quite hostile, when my comment wasn't at all that.|
Mostly, you seem to completely misinterpret everything I said somehow, which I don't understand because everything I said was quite clear imo.
I didn't say your ramps are retarded, learn to read. I said I thought they were ugly, unnecessary, and possibly created pathing issues.
I opened the map up, and yes, they are ugly. For the most part I couldn't see any pathing issues, aside from the scv running into ramp walls, but I think that might be normal sc pathing -.-
Also, I don't care what issues other mappers have left in their maps, I'm commenting your map, not theirs. I could point out flaws, issues, and/or things which could simply be improved upon in every single promap in existance, but that would accomplish nothing.
I said your nats suck, I opened up the map, and I haven't changed my mind.
The spells appear to both not crash the map and work fine. I am surprised, they didn't look like they would from the picture. You do strange stuff with tiles.
The thing about the map being "late" is a joke.
I didn't say your mains are too small.
I haven't watched any replays, what are you talking about?
Your comment about the main chokes makes me wonder if you play sc oO Protoss cannot possibly use any 1base strategy, so you have strategically severely hampered the map. You also limit Terran in a similar way.
Yes 9/7/5 9/6/5 both work. The min onlys are fine, my comment was that since they are so safe and easy to take, it would further make sense to reduce the amount of minerals present.
Shrink nat choke without shrinking nat, I don't see how it's that complicated ._. Look at the new osl map, (4)Holy Land or something. It's not on the site atm, go to teamliquid.net. Alternatively, you can look at Python, though it's a slightly less effective model for this setup.
Oh, and at your big lecture on "organic ramps" (rofl -_-), ramps are chokes, nothing more. You're using them the way they're used in wc3 or something. That's fine, but since you're not using them the way they're used in every other sc map, you shouldn't expect people to fall in love with them instantly. I personally find them to be ugly tile-wise and quite useless/unnecessary.
btw whether you were trying to be hostile or not, you should lecture me less, since I know what I'm doing/talking about. I understand how ramps work, spells work, etc -_-
|btw there are some bad player colours in the map|
|Not all the things I posted refered to your post, Nightmarjoo.|
But maybe we should stop further arguing about specific points right here, before misinterpretation remains the only dependable factor in our communication...
Sorry if you felt offended by my post, it was definitely not meant like that and in my opinion I was not even talking to you specifically but just refering about my opinion about some things in a general manner (I am pretty sure you know how SC mechanics work, and it was no attempt to doupt that, but this is a public post and there are also other people reading it).
And finally, for it seems it was not explicit enaugh, THE NATURALS NEED WORK.
And I honestly think that just shrinking the ramp won't cut it. There is just a lack of building space so protoss cannot build a comfortable wallin with cannons, even on a smaller choke.
modified by Freakling
|i found some unwalkable tiles.|
and i recommend you to use the other kind of briddge tile for only one isometrical tile
something like a <> i hope you understand what i mean.
there are 2 ways yto make an isometrical bridge tile
|btw, the naturals need work|
|Sorry, testbug, I totally fail to get what you want to tell me about bridge tiles.|
Unwalkable tiles? Where? Some of the doodad tiles in the middle are unwalkable, I can remove some of them, if you are referring to something else, please mark it as GMCS.
|Not an update - yet.|
But month is over and I still need another day (but I am very confident that it'll be done tomorrow).
I do not give a changelog now, I will also do that when it is done. But the important changes should be apparent from the picture.
I still need to complete deco and other cosmetics, test mineral lines and adjust some shapes...
The good thing about it is: If you want me to chage something you can ask me before I start deco :)
|Freakling, you sure like to make maps that have swirly ramps :D|
|Hey freakling, the nats need some work.|
|Hmmm... Yeah... Maybe. Could you be a bit more specific? Do you think the choke is too wide? There are very few reference maps for ramp nat chokes, basically Troy, Un'Goro and Persona (the last one is a special case and the other two have pretty wide chokes). Having a hight advantage and a really narrow choke could make defense a bit too easy and turtlish I presume.|
|This is a very good map. What I have observed is that those central gas-nats can split groups of advancing units but that just means that you have to be careful as to where you send them.|
What I do think is that those dwebs in groups of 3 are pretty useless unless they are meant for deco. Why don't you aling them next to each other bordering the top part of the ramps (see for example the map "Avatar"). That way units can use them for defensive/offensive purposes.
|Just make sure protoss can FE there pvz with a proper gate/forge wall that allows all protoss units through but largely blocks movement, and is close enough to the nexus and the main choke (er the nat choke closer to the mains here).|
What are the minerals next to the power generator like?
I agree with Lancet.
|The mineral blocks that you can see on the picture are just placeholders at the moment. I need to do some testing concerning Zealot tight Rax depot walling first. The ramp blocks in 2.04 turned out really imballanced and bugged... Power Generators have a really weird collision box...|
However, the mineral blocks will be 16 times stacked 0 Minerals when it is done.
it should also be possible to just build a rax or depot in the choke and only have a 1 tile wide gap left to block with an SCV on hold position.
I think I need to play around with protoss building in the nat a bit more... I was mostly inspired by Troy chokes. Those are pretty vulnerable against Zerglings, though...
I might add some more Dwebs (maybe 3 or 4) on the ridges. I think along the long ramps opposite the middle shorter ones would be good. That'S the shortest attck route from one middle expo to another.
And of course: The map has multiple paths and the vey middle has kind of slightly bilinear tendencies thus given the right starting and aiming point unit groups might be split. But just attack moving units from one base to another on a map like this is just plain stupid. It's not Python for a reason.
|Yes I like the map, it just needs those edits you mentioned and then it's motm.|
Well, main2nat distance is a little long because of two ramps and a lowground piece between them, but it should be ok (and is part of the concept).
|Main to Nat distance should be kind of counterballanced by the long Nat to Nat distance and the free mineral only.|
|UPDATE: (4)Schizophrenia 2.05|
- Some small changes to the buildable spots in the middle to make them equally usefull as proxy locations for all positions.
- added some dwebs on the ridges
- moved and removed some unwalkable doodads in the middle
- added a cliff and some dropable ground behind the mineral onlies (should be difficult enaugh to succesfully drop there...)
- changed mineral counts to 9/5/6/7
- added some building space to the mains
- added some building space to the nats for cannons
- fixed some mineral formations
- overhauled nat main chokes for Zealot tight rax depot wallin on all positions
- reworked nat chokes for ling tight Forge/Gate wallins on all positions
- fixed some bad ramp transition tiles
- worked on some tile blends and other cosmetics
- changed some player colors
- added text message to observer version
modified by Freakling
|"Main to Nat distance should be kind of counterballanced by the long Nat to Nat distance and the free mineral only"|
I'm thinking about muta vs mnm, you?
|Default ramps are mostly blocked by 1 zlot in the center, or completely blocked by 2 zlots.|
Nat still doesn't work for pvz fe imo. You can do a decent wall between the geyser and other edge, but then there's the gap on the other side of the geyser for lings, hydra, lurker to abuse. Also the geyser is pretty vulnerable in general, I dunno if that's wise even if it is intended.
|Moving Nat formations clockwise and Main formations counteclockwise a bit could kind of solve both problems, I think... I will try it out.|
I also need to fix NW Mineral Only. One cannot build a Comsat there...
|Update to version 2.06|
- Safer nat gas
- fixed some tiles
- fixed cliff at NW Mineral Only to allow building of comsat
|Woa man I think u added 2 many D-webs in the middle.|
It would be nice if u removed a couple.
|ur overkill with the spells in the middle, u should really remove some d-webs and all of the dark swarms|
|I added some GMCS what needs to be done to the nats. I am not sure if it will suffice, so please feel free to add your own propositions if you have any.|
|I dunno, we'll just have to see. At any rate it's a good start. If that doesn't fix it entirely, I'll be more helpful and help you fix it once and for all so we can post motm already.|
|freakling im always down to help a fellow mapper test their map. pm later if u get on when u can get on iccp so we can test|
|i put up a few gmcs.|
only problem i think with nats is 10 & 5's nats have more room on one side then 12 & 6's nats.
also all the formations are hugging the maps edge witch i think is bad since muta harass is near impossible since turrets wont have a long range to shoot with the mutas being right over them.
also drop ships, ovies, shuttles would be able to pass the nat for a sneak drop easier with the formations where i mark them to be
|Looks like a REALLY fun map, but honestly all those disruption webs and the dark swarms seem to take away from the map. I would play on that map if you removed most/all of them.|
-just some bug fixes
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