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Last update for (4)Kaiber1.3 : 2007, 12, 10 06:36
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
429 (4)Kaiber1.3 128*128Travin1.7final

The map has been rated 66 times and got a total of 112 points
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You can rate the map here. Chose a grade between 10 (best) and 0 (worst).
Comments:   GMCS (4 elements)


trcc
It looks like goddess of day in its first version.. :P Remove some doodads and it would be a very good map, a small shoke at natural, but unbuildable terrain so terran can't wall.. mineral only with a nice cliff behind And the center is well made give you opportunity to drop behind mineral ;)
trcc
Even if the path around middle are small, terran still can't build turrets so it will be difficult to push
panschk
Building space is not really much. I hope it's enough when building tightly.

Well looks cool, but test have to made, there are a lot of potentially frustrating elements (Placement of naturals)
Malmis
It may seem as there's insufficient building space. However, thats not the case you can actually place an iloveoov ammout of factories there:P
Travin
my intentions was to create a outer ring with lots of those muchroom doodads and unbuildable space and a inner center with less doodads and very buildable center.

and i "think" mains are big enough but not sure
Travin
first game on kaiber, well it turned out pretty long..
Malmis
Just beacuse FA decided to gayyyyyyyyyyyyyy
FrozenArbiter
Playing gay is the only way son~_~ Nah but, I was getting raped early on so I figured I'd be a bit art!

Then when I thought I was winning I wasn't doing too much and then I realized I was losing and yeah :D
FrozenArbiter
Oh and the mains are a bit tight IMO but I didn't exactly place my buildings in an optimal way so~_~
AiurZ
The mains seem pretty small, especially when you take into account that there is virtually no other room anywhere on the map that you could conceivably build your base.

I think you should clear a little bit of the rocky ground out of the natural area, both as an extension for the main bases and to make them easier to defend (like trying to fast expand in PvZ)

And I always thought those doodads were like coral, not mushrooms :O It probably looks really nice in the game.
trcc
Fix the red base, you can siege tank on the little low dirt behind gas ya maybe remove the rocky ground in the naturals, aswell as some doodas that could obstruckt the way.. Thats the only thing i can say for the moment.. How long it took you to make thiis map, theres so much details :P
Travin
wild guess is 3.5-4 hours
Travin
-minor update-
Travin
wtf the new pic wont be updated...
megamonk
Naturals are too cramped...I can't believe this is getting good reviews/replays. Sorry, I don't mean to offend Travin. Pathing goes right through the mineral line :( "frustrating"...yes, this would be.

Mains look fine to me, maybe just a little bit more space for a sloppy T.

Replay: FA's factory placment was just funny. I liked when all those vultures got blocked in, LOL. I said to myself "what a newb!" but then I looked at the rep in BWChart and said "No, I'm a newb!" ;)

megamonk
^Note: I was talking about the natural for the bottom left position...not sure about pathing on the others.
Travin
update.
moved nats a little so units wont go through workers.
Daleadil
Haven't played it but the unbuildable terrain near the entrance of the first expansion might be annoying.

Some Zerg players build their second hatchery in a close expansion and defend with Sunkens. can't defend with sunkens if you can't _build_ sunkens where they matter most.
Travin
you can build sunkens, maybe not 20.. but at most pos you can fit atleast 8... if you watch the jpg
Listoric
Hmm... where to build a sunken on the lower right natural?

i think this critique is very right, you should remove the unbuildable terrain from there and reduce it to the "outer ring".
Travin
there is plenty of room there, i just tried it out and i could place more than 20 sunks there and a hatchery..
FrozenArbiter
Bah :P My hands were cold so I couldn't control/place facs well :D
Listoric


well... that's the only "good" way to defend the lower right expansion with sunkens, but that is ridiculous. You have to build the sunken over the hatch first, because the purple creep stops next to the geysir. So, after you built that sunken, you can "defend" with the next 4 sunkens above the geysir. but one after the other and that is really an easy kill for every rangeunit. so, please, change the terrain... don't be so stubborn. it's the best for your map and improves it A LOT!
Travin
okay i see your point when the gas is placed like that, so *changed*
Starparty
dont tell people where to build :P let them decide for themselves... perhaps invert the map placing unbuildable in center and buildable on the rest?
megamonk
No. I like the change from the standard unbuildable center. Just make more buildable near naturals.
Travin
i think the nats are buildable enough now :x ...or?
megamonk
Yeah, I guess naturals are ok...but why have unbuildable near the ramps? Just curious.
Travin
why not :0
Travin
changed purps mineral placement
Travin
+ some minor things
trcc
Where's teal location =P
Travin
rofl i tell u i did it on intention!!
Travin
hmm does it take time for it to update :o or is something wrong
Travin
okay working now, maybe you cant upload it if you have it in editor :O.
atleast it worked when i closed editor
Djin)Xuul(
i just took a closer look at this map and the more i look at it the more i think Kaiber is just a modified version of Aztec

both maps have the same concept at tileset, mainbase, the ring around the middle and the middle itself... the only difference are the naturals

i dont want to blame u travin, since i think u r a very good mapmaker, but its a fact that Aztec was published 1 month before Kaiber at TL.net... so i would like to hear your opinion bout the very obvious similarities between those two maps

here is a picture which shows the equality

http://www.djin.net/maps/pics/aztec_kaiber.gif
Starparty
well this picture atleast clearly indicates the opposite. Since no water is located at the same are, no 2nat is located at the same area (according to which player they belong to) and kaiber has no temple in the center, plus its more narrowed, I'd have to say that you both have been the victims of a quite unoriginal concept :P
Starparty
But i think i like xuuls version more, cause it feels less cramped.
Djin)Xuul(
yes thats true starparty, but the character and idea of both maps is equal

i feel like Kaiber is Aztec 2.0 made not by the original author
Starparty
Well i still have to disagree..

The map is basically a corner counterclockwise startposition formation and the center is 4 walls made to create 2 different paths. Designwise that is all there is to it, and then a bunch of decoration built on top.

There really aren't many variables to do different on a map like this and since you didnt promote Aztec very much it is unlikely that he had any references to that map when he made kaiber.

The only thing that actually confuses me a little bit is that travin usually makes more complicated layouts in his maps..
Listoric
Both maps look almost exactly the same. Travins versions is more detailed, but cramped as well. I'd prefer a version of both mixed. Any volunteers for (4)Kaiber - The Aztec ?
XuuL
i dont want to make any offense against travin... but i rly like the concept and i think its just fair that the fathership of an idea is protected at the art of mapmaking too

i wrote my suggestion at the TL thread some days ago, but travin didnt react on that.. and since a lot ppl like that idea i feel myself in the right to reclaim aztec as the original map

but anyways, lets wait what travin has to say about it
XuuL
hehe good comment Listoric... maybe thats a good solution
Starparty
to me its a bit like LT vs Lt-clone.
Travin
well i didnt have acces to a computer in the last few days so i coulndt possibly answear. and i didnt even see your map before making this one
panschk
Really, saying the map is copyied is really a joke. Sampling ideas is no crime, actually I would be honoured if someone re-used the idea I had on a map.

And I like Kaiber more ^_^;
Listoric
I absolutely doubt that anyone would copy a map here. The (new Starparty term) 8-8-6 layout here is quite basic, and then you have a giant wide open middle, where you can play around to fill in stuff.

I actually created the same map(-center) years ago, but it looked awefull to me, so i never touched something like that again.

Also you all know what i think of center expansions :P

So, don't mind, jsut a coincident. Keep on mappin guys ^^
KingFiercer
Heh... 4 players version of Goddes of Day.
:) Good map because have HeavyMacro! I like maps like that, with nearest mineral mine! :D
Thnx.
Travin
eh i dont see any similarities
XuuL
well, to me its an obvious clone of Aztec... just the nats are little changed, which made the center rotating by 45

i dont accept your view that there are no similarities and your kinda ignorant behaviour makes me even feel more that u stole the idea and publish it as yours

im kinda sad that u didnt accept my offer to work on that idea together and make a good mix of Aztec and Kaiber since both maps have advantages and disadvantages

Kaiber is just too narrow and Aztec too open, a good mix could have been a real great map


Starparty
It actually is quite a good idea.
panschk
lol, make your own mix if you feel like it. Kaiber is kaiber and aztec is aztec, they happen to have a similar layout, that happens from time to time.
XuuL
i just wanted to get a peaceful solution panschk

its not just that Aztec is Aztec and Kaiber is Kaiber... Kaiber is Aztec in a different version
FrozenArbiter
XuuL, 'no similarities' was in reference to it being a 'goddess of day 4 player version'.

Of course it looks similiar, people do have the same ideas from time to time.

Anyhow, 1) Travin doesn't even read tl.net a lot 2) he was away almost all summer so I doubt very much he saw your map..

It is not even THAT similiar-_-
SpoR[Mech]
Get over it. Here is My map, What do you guys think?

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

PS - This Map is entirely original and anyone who has ever made a map that was similar can give me credit because i made this map in 1997 and my dad was there and saw it happen. ask him
SpoR[Mech]
Credit is due, Xuul.
Listoric
lol, i really had to laugh on this one SpoR ^^

especially the 1997 part :)

enough for that. guys, get back on track. if you want to comment, than on the map itself, not on this crazy conversation.

To end it: Kaiber is Kaiber, Aztec is Aztec. Both maps are different enough to say that none is an update of the other. Calm down, improve your map, be happy.

thx.
hefty
It seems to me that blue's mineral only is quite a bit farther away from the entrance to the nat than the other min onlies are from their entrances. This makes the blue position harder to defend in certain MUs.
XuuL
okay spor, u r the man :]

u should show this copy/paste stuff to travin, so he can clone maps even faster ^^
Travin
wtf is wrong with you... i have never copied anything from anyone and as far as i know i made my map before you made yours
flothefreak
could you just stop this childish behaviour, the both of you?

As it is now, you're just pseudo-flaming each other and even if it would go on for months like this, this won't change.

So do it via eMail or whatever, and there you should discuss your points of view in a way that is more based on arguments. T_T
And please let go your ignorance towards ANYthing the other part says. 8[
Travin
i have written one thing afther he has written like 10... so im acting childish thats just nice
Listoric
Just stop insulting and "joking" around. It's not that it would help anyone here. Travin, i know you'Re just responding, Xuul, stop teasing Travin.

I prefer this map over Aztec, even if i think that the concept is good, and could be made better with more room to walk. The concept itself is quite basic, i don't see so any special detail that makes this concept outstanding in any way. So stop arguing about this concept here. I haven't seen someone stealing a mapconcept ever.

I craete maps since Shadow Warrior that some of you may know. Never stopped mapping for FPS or RTS games and had thousands of concept in my head, never seen someone copying from another (except the flood of LT and Hunter clones, but they never intended them to be their "own" idea). And especially in BW, where the mass of designs are already created and the game basics are in everyones mind, it's no surprise that some maps may look as others.

Just look at trcc who is said to copy himself already. Total bullshit.

Again, stop any discussing about clones, copies and stuff, if you want to have a conversation on that, you know how to create a forum post ;)

The comments were intended to chat and give the autor information what he could do better. I think the most of us are "old" enough to ask before "taking" a concept from another.
----

I still think that you should increase the buiding sapce near the naturals. I always warp my gates near the enemy, the further the game goes. But here is it a bit hard in 2on2 to build enough gates without being an ingenieur somehow :P why is there unbuildable rock anyway?


Travin
i dont want zerg to gay the mineral onlys with 20 sunks in pvz forcing the p to make carrier and a boring game
XuuL
i just write what im thinking of and i still feel in the right to do so... but before some ppl start whining i listen to papa listoric and stop telling the truth
Listoric
Hmm.. haven't seen a zerg doing that on any map ^^ well, just wanted to ask.
Travin
if you havent, watch any twisted replays in zvp and you will know
hefty
Blue still have a harder time defending from mins only, travin. ^^
Travin
v 1.3
hasuprotoss
This map is okay, but I think that it could have some improvement. It seems that it is Azalea-like in the expansions, because your choke is pretty much after the mineral only. It is very hard to put down a lot of defense, and that can hurt all races, but I would say Zerg and Protoss moreso than Terran. Also, This map seems near impossible to rush on, and Zerg can pretty much get his economy running in no time at all.
decaf
Travin, gas doesnt NEED to be top or left at nat, it s just important for mains. It would benefit more if you moved the geyser closer to the ramp and away from choke so that it's easier to place sunkens well at the 2 and 5 spots. Check gmcs.
Replays


--bastar vs id.fa vs (1on1, 1.13)
--hasuprotoss vs Baltazzarr(1on1, 1.13)
--PsychoTemplar vs MuShuPork(1on1, 1.15)

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