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Last update for (2)NE1 : 2013, 02, 21 16:51
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4575 (2)NE1 otherCrystalDrag1.6betaother

The map has been rated 58 times and got a total of 95 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


JungleTerrain
rofl "some korean"

who posted this, though?
Freakling
Absolutely terrible for Zerg...
Chef
Just because there is no creep at the choke?

I wouldn't be so sure, 3 hatch is not that hard (like 12 at LT in the old days) and there are a lot of bases extremely vulnerable to muta harass since turrets are even harder to place than they were on Blue Storm.

I won't say out and out that it is balanced, but I wouldn't count Zerg out just because he can't send two drones to his nat as quickly. You could still do a fairly regular build as Z on this map, although it's not always that nice to be forced to 3 hatch.

The mid is also not too friendly for Z once Z gets an army, and since the map suggests itself so much to midgame style army for Z with the openness of the expos, that might not be fun. But I think you will do a stupid amount of damage in the muta harass phase that might just cripple the opponent before that happens. Which kinda makes it not that great a map, but maybe if z does a lot of damage but T survives, the advantages T has midgame might make it interesting? Maybe that makes gameplay a little too narrow to be fun, but just some thoughts on how testing might go if it were to ever be done.
modified by Chef
CrystalDrag
I suggest making the pathways bordering the map lead to new expansions (that the corner double gas one) would be split .. and perhaps smaller ramps to there.
Those middle bases will probably never be taken.

@Chef But alot of the mineral fields are away from the enemy
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
12 on LT is a bad example...

And even assuming that muta harassment alone could win games for zerg ona regular basis - zerg would still be reduced to a one trick pony - because what do you do after that? There's no good third to take...
JungleTerrain
Lol Chef.

aggressive lings in the beginning will suck for T.

It also looks like the naturals are tankable from outside with vision.

Being forced to go 3hatch is not cool, though :(
I think some of these more pressing issues could easily be avoided if they just narrowed the main choke a bit and introduced a neutral creep.

Also, the terran might be able to make a ling tight wall at the main entrance, with 2 supply depots on top of the rax. Don't exactly know if it's even possible here, but a possibility.
Freakling
Naturals are not tankable.
CrystalDrag
I would have though you would get it...
Wanted to try to create three different expanding possibilities.
Arbiters may work, the 3rds cannot be tank able from below the ramp and the arbiter is obscured from view.
Creep colony spreads creep through the Troy gate closer to the middle. Not sure if creep will be affected with the destruction of the gate.

Also remember Zerg cannot build a third hatchery at the choke, because of the grot gates still count as resources.
Not done, just uploaded progress I made during school...
Will there be a problem with only two main ramps to move out?

@Jungle the naturals are not tankable now, has to change around because I thought they were exposed enough already.... If they turn into islands drops into it will be more effective due to less anti air as opposed to the previous mineral field orientation.
@Chef please do not compare any map to Lost Temple, I find it insulting personally, but thank you for the Rey of your thoughts.

Overall trying to make it better for jerg.

I am "some Korean" :P

modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
JungleTerrain
haha :)
Chef
Lost Temple is a very good map for the trends and abilities of the players of its time. All maps are trapped within their time that way.

You made much of the changes I pointed out, so I assume you weren't that offended ;p

I don't think you're right about not being able to build a hatch at the choke tho... The creep will spread far enough to put down a sunk properly, and that's all it needs to do. If you wanted to do the normal fix you could just put a neutral creep colony there, and if you don't want creep there at all you can make in unbuildable. Not sure why you would want the latter tho.
Freakling
No, LT was even badly imba back at its time. It was only so popular becuase the alternatives were worse, far worse and total crap...
CrystalDrag
I actually made the changes that I put as gmcs
and i am right about no hatchery at the choke. which is why i shrunk the choke, to allow the sunken to cover less , and to maje terran wallins bwtter.

what the **** is \"normal\" suppose to be. i am not a. \"standard\" mapper. the creep colony works perfectly fine for sunkens at the choke when the natural hatchery is finished.

this map is nothing like lost tenple, so please sto the comparisons.

How is balance for zerg.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Problem is: You still cannot place an early creep colony against early Zealot/M&M pressure or Vulture harass...Takes quite some time before the creep reaches the choke...
CrystalDrag
Did some changes...
CrystalDrag
Freakling, do you know of any bug-free unbuildable snow tile besides the one from the ramps?
If you extended your guide... Id appreciate, because i always lift tiles from yours
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
No, I don't know of any.
But that is because what I know, for sure, though, is that there is none ;D
Chef
You have way too much ego.
Freakling
No, I just know what I am talking about.
But you are not the first one to confuse that...
Freakling
On topic: Why do you need unbuildable snow anyway? Just use unbuildable dirt and go easier on people\'s eyes...
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
Yeah, Freakling really knows more about tiles, their properties and mapping mechanics than even most of the old mappers on this site. I would trust him on that, but there still could be tiles that could have been overlooked.
Freakling
I am also assuming that by "snow tile" he means "high snow tile" in fact, because for snow there is a trivial solution...
CardinalAllin
Out of curiosity, are the unbuildable snow tiles I used in Checkpoint bugged then? I only used two different tiles I think.
0280.02
0063.02
CrystalDrag
Freakling is the only one who knows what he is talking about when it comes to tiles.
I hate to go easy on people's eyes. Asians need more advantages.
Yes i meant high snow, cause i know about rocky ground. :)
Freakling
@Cardinal: We were talking about (high) snow tiles, not dirt!

@Crystal: I know you know... Hence my answer.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
and using dir would ruin the pattern in the middle... maybe i can adjust it.
does this mean you are satisfied for the choke?
CrystalDrag
Added some more dirt.
Made the small ramps one tile wider.
Also, if zerg places a sunken at the choke, they can kill off one assim and not vulture-harrasable :D
Freakling
Am I getting that right that only the one colony at the main choke produces creep at game start?
Maybe you can reduce the creep area somewhat, like on Colloseum, so you can reliably kill the colony off and be safe from sunken rushes.
For the chokes I think you should just make them tighter. the creep colonies are pretty useless. Mass static defenses is just not so great for Zerg (compared to cannons for example.
Make chokes somewhat like Jade in width and it should be fine.
But I really like the expo layout now.

Cosmetically: You could actually reverse the middle, make it dirt and the scxthe.thingy in the middle snow... Or make it bridge terrain...
You could also connect the dirt areas directly to the ramps, then you would need less of those bad-looking unbuildable snow tiles.
If you want to make clear, where the actual ramp is, you can use doodads to mark it, like those stone doodads. Be careful, though, because one of them acts as a vision blocker. Or you intentionally do something with vision blockers (like putting them across the two wide ramps closest to the centre.).

And have a look at Zapretnaya Zona for high structure to cliff blends.

CrystalDrag
"Maybe you can reduce the creep area somewhat, like on Colloseum, so you can reliably kill the colony off and be safe from sunken rushes."
Oh. I forgot to delete the unit creep colony underneath... So i would just add more unbuildable dirt to allow just one sunken?

"For the chokes I think you should just make them tighter. the creep colonies are pretty useless. Mass static defenses is just not so great for Zerg (compared to cannons for example."
I made those when you were talking about them earlier, cause i didnt know which choke :P
so the 3 pylon wide gap should reduced so lurkers can easily defense it. Jade's are about 2 pylons wide.. Alright. Clarified.

High ground structure to cliff.. will look at that~

I know about that tile freakling :D
I can also do a bridge line to also indicate the ramp as well.
I do not know dirt to cliff blends. :(
Freakling
You do not need dirt to cliff blends, keep the edges snow. Just extend the dirt towards the ramp, where the ramp is.
modified by Freakling
Freakling
This post is not displayed due to its content
traceurling
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
This post is not displayed due to its content
Freakling
OK, I finally had a closer look at this map, and I really like were this is going, but there are still a lot of things coming to my mind, that I think should be adressed, before you put any efforts into further deco details, because they could make the map much better.

1. This is a two player map, which means that there are only the two mains the players start with. So that is were all your macro infrastructure has to go, and therefor I like to allocate ample space to mains of (2) maps.
Yours mains, on the other hand, are rather minimal-sized. You should at least reduce the bulky outpost area clockwise from the SLs, but moving some stuff around to make overall more room for mains would certainly not hurt.

2. The nats are also minimal-sized and therefore cramped... So the whole main/nat area should probably get more space.

3. Having those tight ramps in front of the nats follows the idea of a short, but tight rushing/scouting path and longer, wider paths that big armies can go around.
The problem in this case is that the pretty big middle outpost structure in the middle, as well as the minimal distances between the tight ramps and the wide ones counteract that concept.
I am mainly thinking of Polaris Rhapsody now, which has some similarities in structure. The middle there is totally open, but if you don't take the tight bridge path, your army has to travel all the way around to get across the map.

So what you should do is, try to figure out what it really is you want to achieve with this map conceptually. Then figure which elements are important for it to be implemented and which ones you can maybe drop for an overall less cramped expo layout.
I would focus on the following core requirements:

- extend mains clockwise and nats counterclockwise, move the four thirds and all the terrain that is functionally important to them (like egg-ramps, keeping things out of tank range...) accordingly
- move the wide ramps further away from the tight ones and replace the middle outpost structure with some other one, that leaves a gap in the middle,
or just drop the tight ramps and focus on getting the expo layout right.
- I would treat the area with the mineral-onlies and the corner expos as free space, that you can restructure any way you like, if required. You'll probably need to get rid of one of those expos, for reasons of space restrictions, but I guess that'll be alright.
CrystalDrag
I started doing the updates, when i realized i did it on a past version i saved...So the middle i stored away.

What i wanted to achieve with the map was to allow expansion in a certain direction, (expanding one way around the edge) But that already done..<

Actually the real concept was to simply have high ground mains with high outpost...
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that you should just get rid of the small ramps and middle path.
And I would merge those two corner expos to one, with a wide ramp [not too wide! i.e. not Python wide, but still well defensible], optionally with double gas (probably good, given that you also have two mineral onlies per player) and/or a dropable outpost cliff behind them.
Think about it; right now your map has as many expansions as a normal 4 player map, but with less room, and those corners are really crowded with stuff. I'd rather get rid of one of the gas expos and give the low ground passages to the 3rds and the mineral onlies more room, so they don\'t appear as crammed in.

If you have done this, I have an idea on middle deco, that I would like to try.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
I will work on it
CrystalDrag
Rough Sketch.
Ill move the mineral onlies soon.
Freakling
Make sure main and nat are very comfortable first.

And now, with the small ramps gone, I think you should put back some outpost in the centre.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
They are not comfortable... because of the SL positions.
I suppose i could test to see how far away they can go...

And alright.

Edit : working on Reblending
modified by CrystalDrag
CrystalDrag
terran seiges at their teo ramps and have 4 gases... it could be be hard to push up even with unbuildable ground??
Freakling
You can always make ramps wider...

And I think the middle thingy should be more kinda ovi-spotty ;)
CrystalDrag
Well, protoss and Zerg can always just expand to both corners then... As i left large flank room intentionally, and very little buildable ground....
And it will be more ovie-spotty o_o
CrystalDrag
A Cutoff in the snow. Ew.
Is this amount of buildable space acceptable for terran pushes?
modified by CrystalDrag
CrystalDrag
One really BS thing terran can do is walloff with one rax one depot, then destroy the outer assimilators... Then perch tanks behind and shoot everything coming :P

And use mines in the snow.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
You trapped Pandabearguy! Cruelty to animals!

By "BS" thing you mean "BM" thing? Wouldn't be worse than tanks on main clif in any normal map though, I think....

An why is it called "NE1" now? What is NE1, to begin with?
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
NE1 = Anyone

but when you put it together with the map name, it says

(2)NE1 = "Twenty-one" OR "To Anyone"

It is a Girl Korean Pop band under YG Entertainment. And CD is korean, so he must like them...
Freakling
Oh, please, not more maps named after kitschy pop acts...
CrystalDrag
Sentimentality or vulgar, often pretentious bad taste, especially in the arts.
So tacky or lame that is has a certain ironic appeal.
tawdry, vulgarized, or pretentious art, literature, etc, usually with popular or sentimental appeal
flashy, tasteless
something that appeals to popular or lowbrow taste and is often of poor quality

I don't see it...
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Well... By that definition my choice of words may have been even better than I put thought into it...

Pretty good description for that kind of overcommercialized pop-junk, don't you think?!
CrystalDrag
I wouldn\\\'t say over commercialized... and not junk.. it is simply a preference in music.

And the other group wasn\\\'t a pop group at all.

i going to try to make pathing for both sides be equal
and i need to fix minerals..
wont make the changes until freakling comes out with the article of mineral balancing... im workin on a monobattle ums map right now!


modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
So, according to Wikipedia, YG casts some four girls, puts them into neat outfits, so they look good on the cover of some cooky-cutter electro pop album, supposedly having them "trained for four years" before (in what? Perfect compliance I'd guess). How much further would one need to go, so you'd consider "over-commercialized" an appropriate description?
If you don't think it's junk, then ask yourself why you are listening to it now, or if you'd still care about it some years, or even mere months from now...
And of course Versailles is a pop group, electric guitars, more unusual outfits, and hence probably smaller audience, do not really make a hell lot of a difference, as far as musical content is concerned, it's still pop(ular) music.

On topic:
Resource balancing has to be done, when all is finished, so go ahead.
Taranok
why is there need for those egg blocks?
CrystalDrag
"puts them into neat outfits"
Their style is much more different than typical Korean Girl Groups.
""trained for four years""
Yes, There is a major age gap which they had to overcome, some were going to be solo artists before they assembled.
*Note : The fans are called "Blackjacks" (Muahaha!)
Anyway. I will still be listening to them when i'm in college!

Alright. Might be hard though... i have feeling there should be something about the ramps..
Egg blocks needed to stop those pesky vultures. Also can allow safe retreat from the corner expos.

modified by CrystalDrag
Taranok
what's wrong with pylons?
CrystalDrag
Workers cant pass through pylons :)
Freakling
What's wrong with the ramps?
What you might want to change are the low ground passages behind the mineral onlies at 3 and 9 looking so straight-lined.
CrystalDrag
Pathing always go through the top left ramps. Going to see if i cant split the armies.
ill Do that
Cant do it.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
If you finish up everything else, I can attempt some final edits to the middle, including centralized pathing, if you want.
CrystalDrag
i did all the edits.
CrystalDrag
You can attempt the final edits you want to do, Freakling, if there is nothing else you want me to implement..
Freakling
OK, but may take a little while...
Guides, map packs, own maps, non-BW stuff....
sTY_leZerG-eX
Ooooio sooooOO sexy, u know i am an snow fan :)
Very interesting nats, i wonder how it plays out, and if its playable
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