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Last update for (4)In the Way of an Eddy : 2018, 09, 29 22:46
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4674 (4)In the Way of an Eddy 128*128Freakling3.8betaground

The map has been rated 48 times and got a total of 181 points
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CrystalDrag
Sup freakling
Veezal
I like it but mmmm that base is so ling run in-able against an fe because of where the nat is positioned
CrystalDrag
Rhe chokes are 8 tiles wide, so shoildnt be a pronlem..
Freakling
I think he is assuming that the ramp would be outside your wall... Which, of course, it is not.
Freakling
Update. Still a rough draft, but at least it is a finished rough draft now.

I even admit that this doesn't make a whole lot of sense...
CardinalAllin
He means that your workers are tucked away so if you have to pull them to reactively block a 3 hat speedling type attack it will be harder.

Sexy map as always.
Freakling
I'll make sure Protoss can make great wallins; there isn't really any wiggling room for changing the ramp position.
Freakling
Update:
[Version 1.00]
- finished deco
- debugged resources
- added observer version (compressed, no fog)
modified by Freakling
CardinalAllin
So im guessing these two mains are examples of comsat optimized. On Roadkill the two mains have one like this but one different. Whats the general rules?
I like the tiles under the minerals, and the ramps ofcourse.
modified by CardinalAllin
Freakling
Yeah, you get as close to perfect mining with comsat as it gets if you place a supply depot (or turret) at the right spot, at all bases!
Freakling
1. Just set up the minerlals at the bottom right corner and above like I did, always leave the gap at that exact spot.
2. Hope that it works (which it does, most of the time)
modified by Freakling
CardinalAllin
OK cool.
I think its worth stating:
This formation does allow 1 cannon to be made behind the min line with 2 pylons blocking either side.
And whilst on the topic, the bottom left main has a lovely spot to build your spire for zvz but the others dont. This is enough of a thing to influence choice of build and even the outcome of the game.

Also, I know Im bad at thinking of names for maps, but please change this to something more catchy and memorable. The map deserves it!
Freakling
Any name suggestions? If I had anything as fitting and more catchy as the current map name, I would have used it.

Please don't suggest something along the lines of "X Vortrx" - too many maps have already been called like that.

You cannot Cannon rush the nats because you cannot vuild stuff behind the formations (it's mostly to balance it for muta harrassment).

I don't see the spire problems. You could probably argue that assuming one places one's spire behind the main minerals, that it would be minimally more vulnerable at top left... But i don't think it will actually make much of a difference, I would probably use it to block the gap between assimilator and minerlas, anyway, especially when there's a sunken below the geyser.
CardinalAllin
The cannon thing was about the mains, not the nats, for PvP and PvT.

I made a mistake about the spire thing. All 4 start locations can build a spire behind the minerals here if a player wants to so its all good.
But overall I wasnt really saying stuff specifically to you Freakling. I was more just throwing out some of the things Im personally thinking about when making mineral lines in the main. Hence the 'I think its worth saying' and the 'whilst on the topic'.
Another consideration Ive mentioned before is the idea of being able to trap a worker with pylons or depots for air stacks.
So yea It was more of a 'while we are talking about main mineral formations, here are some things I check.'
When I said it can influence choice of build and even the outcome of the game I meant that I believe these considerations are more important than mining rates (zvz is ofcource more fragile). As long as the mining is reasonably good, noone is gunna complain but if one spot can trap a worker for air stacks and the others cant then its more likely to get flagged.

@Freakling: I think you know I greatly admire your knowledge and dedication to the intracies of BW so when you mentioned this comsat optimization it certainly intrigued me.

Hmm as for some name ideas I can only toss around some words that come to my 'dome' on the spot but it might spark off something for you or others, here goes:
Neptunes Pride (this is a pc game title)
Submergency
Midnight Sun
Deserted Vaults
Time Shift
Night Train
The Widows Bond/Plea/Promise
Cosmic Solitude
Hyper Sleep

Freakling
Maybe if mining of one base is off by 5% most people won't complain, but it will probably cost players games nontheless, even if they don't noticed it. A successful cannon rush on the other hand is rare and risky, but if you lose to it will be damn frickin obvious why you lost. I keep things like cheeses, manner pylons, worker trapping, creep spread and general buildability bnehind the mineral lines, gaps for melee and scarab harrassment etc. in mind when setting up mineral lines, but the truth is that all off these points only apply to very specific game situations and player decisions each on of which will rarely occure, whereas bad mining affects each and every single game and matchup.

This map is mostly about geometry... And none of your map suggestions reflects that. And what is a hyper sleep?!
CardinalAllin
You're absolutely right, mining rates are critical.
I maintain that these other considerations are pretty important too though. Manner pylons affect PvP notably, and especially on 2 player maps. I avoid bucket 'C' shape mineral formations so that not too many can get trapped by offensive pylons.
Following on from that, splash drops (like storm and reavers) cause far more havoc when there are big buckets where workers get concentrated into a small 2 tile area. This can lead to much less satisfying gameplay if you miss one drop and 20 peons die. Applies to all bases not just the mains ofcourse.
Regarding trapping a worker for air stacks, well this is a big deal for PvZ in particular and one that cant be ignored. I would argue that the difference it can easily make in losing all you sairs to scourge or not is enough of a reason to ensure fairness at each location.
But yeah, sounds like we are on the same page overall when it comes to theory atleast. In practice I can safely say I have not debugged resources anywhere near to the level you have/do though so there plenty of catching up to do on my part.

Ah sorry about the name ideas. The dominating curvy ramps and the word 'Eddy' made me think a fluid watery spacey reflective kind of mood. Hard mathematical names suit the space tileset the most but really I would say the curvy ramps are what grab the attention rather than the geometry (to the layman so to speak) so maybe something that is linked to them would be cool.
Something around the 'Serpentyne' area might work. Although python and a bit cheesy so maybe not.
Serpentine means intricate and complex not just snakelike so thats a tiny bit good for your geometric angle (but not really ha). Ah Im tired, maybe I will think my ideas are cheesy in the morning hehe. I must admit I find thinking of a name quite hard. Sometimes Ive finished a map and dont release it, go for a few long walks trying to think of a name etc. Then give up cus its taking too long and plump for something naff. So yea Im probably not the best guy to get help from in this department :)
CardinalAllin
I work for the company. But don't let that fool you, I'm really an okay guy. I'm glad to see you're feeling a little better. They, uh, they tell me that all the weakness and disorientation should pass soon. It's just natural side effects of such an unusually long hypersleep, or something like that.
CardinalAllin
What do you mean? How long was I out there?
CardinalAllin
Has no one discussed this with you yet?
CardinalAllin
No. But, I mean, I don't... recognize this place.
CardinalAllin
No, I know. Uh, okay, it's just that, uh, this might be a shock to you. It's long...
CardinalAllin
*How* long? Please.
CardinalAllin
Fifty-seven years.
NegativeZero
Something to do with the Coriolis effect maybe? That's what those distorted spirals vaguely reminded me of.
Freakling
What' sthat quote from?
traceurling
(4) Tentacles
traceurling
What are the values of the gases at the "thirds"?
A problem in (4) Jade was that in PvZ and TvZ, they were easily able to obtain a third gas without much trouble leading to them being able to overpower Zergs...the update dealing with this then reduced the values of the third gas to 1500g...my suggestion is that since the thirds here are almost as easily defended and taken as in (4)Jade, you might want to reduce the values to say 3000g or something, up to you...
Freakling
You are spot on, they are 3000 :P

Choke is also wider than on Jade.
traceurling
Gosu minds think alike :o I reasoned that since it'd be harder to defend than Jade it should have more gas
traceurling
Another concern is that in TvP, in vertical spawns the Terran might be able to slow push along the narrow sides....Maybe turn the 3 and 9 o clock ramps into a circular large ramp
Freakling
Yeah, maybe...

Now that you mention it, I think I was actually planning to do something like that, but somehow forgot about it between now and the last time I worked on this map before...
modified by Freakling
CardinalAllin
Bump!
Those 3 and 9 o clock ramps, still thinking of adding them?
Also consider changing the entrance into the 3rds from the naturals. The three diamonds of cliff that form the choke, they could be moved so that the entrance is close for the defender.
Freakling
Same stance here: Basically, if you want to use this map for anything seriously (at least playtesting for some definite purpose), give me a timely notice and I'll update specific maps to an appropriate status.

The ramp change is a definite plan, though, I would not recommend using this map competitively (or whatever term you want to apply...) without that change. The other change is worth considering, I think.
Freakling
Version 1.01 with widened ramps to the plateaus at the sides.
CardinalAllin
Lovely jubbly
Freakling
I haven't changed the 3rd chokes, though. At least not yet...
CardinalAllin
I was thinking aswell, a small unwalkable doodad outside the nats to break up that wide open front a little bit would be cool.

(These would be quite far out; basically just beyond the flagstones, and in the 'V' where each curvy ramp splits)
modified by CardinalAllin
sTY_leZerG-eX
This looks very very nice, classic Freakling!
modified by sTY_leZerg-eX
Freakling
@Cardinal: So not on the flagstones? I could add some of those stone pillar crushed rock doodads, I guess.

Do yo still want me to change the chokes to the 3rds as well?
CardinalAllin
I reckon it would be worth changing the chokes to the 3rds.

And if you did so then the position for the unwalkable doodads would be best to be ON the flagstones after all.
Infact it would probably be nice to have 2 doodads! The first slap bang in the middle of the flagstones, and the second just beyond. Ill do a gmcs.

edit: Done a gmcs, note that the position is not perfect cus they have to be on the gmcs grid.
modified by CardinalAllin
CardinalAllin
How about the map name too? Did you like any of the brainstorming from earlier in the thread?

Neptunes Pride (this is a pc game title)
Submergency
Midnight Sun
Deserted Vaults
Time Shift
Night Train
The Widows Bond/Plea/Promise
Cosmic Solitude
Hyper Sleep

Saturnine
Eldritch
Spectral

Did you get what Hyper Sleep is from in the end?

The word Eddy is cool, maybe combine that with 1 other word. Somthing Eddy.

Some sort of cthulu reference would fit well probably.
I freely admit the ideas above arent that good but its just what was laying about in the brain tank at the time.

modified by CardinalAllin
modified by CardinalAllin
modified by CardinalAllin
Freakling
What about something like

Eddy Perturbance/Disturbance/Distortion/Contortion/Deformity/Interference/Warping/PickYourWord... (or the other way around or make it an adjective instead...)

I don't get where Hyper Sleep is from, probably don't know the reference.

Too many doodads would probably clutter it up too much, though... Would probably help TvP, PvZ somewhat... Not sure.
I could also use small basilica pillars.
Should I also add some doodads to the low ground?

What about updated versions of Demian and Avalon, by the way ? Are you or any one working on that?
modified by Freakling
outscar
I wanna hunt new version as well. Checked Avalon from tlpd with editor and it seems it has one temple, so they updated it. Don't know what changes occurred on Demian.

If I could make this wonderful map, oh believe me I wouldn't bother at finding a fitty name to it :).
Freakling
I checked : The maps on TLPD are exactly the same versions (Avalon 0.92, Demian 1.00) as here/on the original release. Who ever claimed that Demian had stacked temples anyway? O.92 does not.

On Demian it is just a matter of fixing some main minerals.

Avalon has a ton of problems though which ought to be fixed:
- some mineral lines mine just absolutely horribly, mostly in the mains and nats, to make things worse. The KSL update probably took care of at least the mains, probably not more
- there are "random" cover providing tiles on top of the high ground ramps
- on left/right 3rds, you only need to destroy the temple to clear the path, on top/bottom ones, you also need to mine out one mineral stack
- at top/bottom 3rds, gas workers regularly spawn behind the mineral lines and have to go all the way around to return their cargo.
CardinalAllin
Hehe, the quotes are a conversation between Burke and Ripley.

(4)Distortion
Just on its own, that sounds great.

Yeah just one doodad on the high ground would be enough. Maybe one of the low ground too yeah.

Yes I PMed people and after that I made this thread:

click here
Freakling
Why not just call it (4)Eddy ?
Freakling
Version 1.02:
- moved 3rd chokes closer to nat
- added some doodads
CardinalAllin
(4)Eddy
I like it. Simple, elegant and catchy.

The updates are lovely.
Check PM on teamliquid.
Freakling
Meh D:

Found a mining problem at SE main... Fixing/testing now.

EDIT: Fixed.
modified by Freakling
outscar
Congratz! New maps on ladder look pretty sick. But why "The"- Latin Quarter? I suggest avoiding long names and prefixes because BW barely reading them if name is long.
CardinalAllin
Cheers outscar. Originally I had the filename as just Latin Quarter without 'the'. It got changed though as you noticed. I prefer without too.
Yeah, filenames have to be 31 characters of less!
cognaclover
Saw on Scan's stream him playing on this. He was pretty annoyed about no place behind mineral lines to place turret, he said it needs to be patched/fixed. I said it's to balance zerg, he answered that every goddamn zerg got perfect micro and harassing shouldn't be problem. What you think?
Freakling
I'd say that no buildable space for turrets behind mineral lines is pretty standard for maps without a cliff behind there (like Jade or Empire of the Sun, for example), which is already an advantage for terran in defending mutas (and on cliffed maps like CB or FS terans build their turrets inside the mineral lines anyway, because they are too easily sniped if they are close to a cliff and out of the way for workers to repair them). Since mutas are so important for Zerg to reach a solid map position in mid game and one of the few edges Zerg actually has in the current ZvT meta, I don't really see why terran would need a buff in that matchup. This map is not particularly terran-unfriendly otherwise, as it is pretty easy to take expansions for terran.
Crimson)S(hadow
are there vision blockers for highground? i'd like to see a (4) reverse map like this (highground nat, lowground main) with vision blockers on the nat's minerals like you did in pyrolisis(the min only's i think) so that it functions like an FS-low ground nat
Freakling
There are mid ground vision blockers, but only for ash and ice terrain (look at Dies Iræ, Pyrolysis, Incidence or Vårens Töväder for examples). However, putting vision blockers directly below the nat mineral formations would probably block too much vision, which would break the game in Zerg's favor with mutas.
CrystalDrag
What has been happening for the last two weeks?
CardinalAllin
The turret placement options at the nats are good here. Terran can defend mutas with turrets in a nice way. As Freakling said, there is no cliff so mutas are already weakened. And as he said, you build turrets inside the min line anyway. Ofcourse we always want to give players options to play in the way they want but this is not an example of a situation where its needed.
Unfortunately its also true that the threat/strength of mutas are essential for keeping TvZ balanced and so I agree we dont want to reduce zerg muta strength, (and the no cliff already does so certainly dont go any further!). And I agree the map is not problematic for Terran overall in any way, so they dont need a boost to get to the lategame or anything like that.

Something extra, the mains are lowground. This makes lurkers less effective at holding the Zerg 3rd base. This is ofcourse another critical moment for Zerg to survive in the matchup. Because Terran gets a bonus fighting lurkers in this way, its even more vital not to weaken zerg.
LasTCursE
Yall still making maps huh? ^^
Freakling
Observer pack uploaded.
JungleTerrain
That is a long name..., why not just (4)Eddy?

What does "In the way of an Eddy" even mean?
Freakling
It's a description of the way the map is made...
Lyra
I like it, but don't understand why the 12/6 expos in mid are min-only.

How's the main-space? Looks a little small.

In particular I like the asymmetry; not sure if I've seen a map with x and y symmetry but with a rotationally symmetrical center and asymmetrical island position (horizontal positions only).

How much hp do the island neutrals have? If it's more than a dropped worker can destroy the islands won't be used.
Freakling
Those expansions are mineral only because the map would become too gas rich otherwise.

The expansion layout is almost exactly Empire of the Sun, though, albeit with a few adaptions and a mineral only added. Andromeda also has island expansions at the same spots.

Mains are as big as I could possibly make them while still keeping expansions at tank range spacing. There are lots of little optimizations, such as the cutaway at the ramp and the SLs not being in the corners that allow for an actually pretty big macro area around the ramp. The rest of the main easily holds enough space to put your tech buildings away from tank ranges (unless we are talking abut a Terran player who needs to place 20 supply depots, but then tank ranges is an equal footing...)

I picked relatively low HP neutrals, 700HP, I think. Would take a single worker a while, though. But if you drop something like two Drones and 3 Zealots, or a Drone and 7 lings it goes down in no time. You can then just reupload the fighting units and drop them somewhere else. The idea is that there is some incentive to dedicate fighting unit time to securing an expansion that is otherwise very easy to secure.
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Update: Version 1.03

- Did some tile magic with the pathfinding regions.
The SE main has much better formations now (there is still one pathfinding problem, but that's a self-correcting one, so I don't care).
- I also made some small changes to doodads so all changes to 3rds can be walled Vulture tight with only one Pylon at the front door (just in case any one actually wants to do that). Since effectively that only replaced mostly unwalkable tiles with other mostly unwalkable tiles there is no effect on pathfinding from this...

Just as a genral tip: Since pathfinding regions are generated starting at the top left and then to the right and down to the bottom right, it is generally a good idea to make terrain adjustments from top to bottom. Very rarely only will a terrain change have an effect on regions above it, but it can completely screw up anything below it.

I will upload the full map packs tomorrow.
EDIT: Done.
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Update v.1.04
Various pathfinding fixes.
Freakling
Update v.1.05
  • Added some doodads in the bottom corners to allow for more efficient building placement around the edge without getting units stuck
  • Added some unbuildable tiles at the big doodads near the mineral onlies to allow for consistent Pylon walls (or walls in general) at both edges
  • changed some cliff edges in the naturals where workers could easily get stuck behind buildings and minerals
  • fixed the ensuing pathfinding mess again…

modified by Freakling
triller1
as for the name suggestions i like the name currently its poetic, but what about something simple, perhaps a 1-worder, "Neptune"? "Tidal Wave"?
"Eddy out/ Eddy in?" "Poseidon"?
brianchoi
how to download ??
Freakling
Top of the page, where it says Download ;D

Or better even: Get the full map pack here!
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