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Last update for (2)what is this : 2015, 03, 25 04:44
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4714 (2)what is this otherNegativeZero0.1experimentalground

The map has been rated 53 times and got a total of 5 points

You can rate the map here. Chose a grade between 10 (best) and 0 (worst).
Comments:   GMCS (27 elements)

Definitely cool. I like it. Needs a lot of work though.
Nice, I really like the concept and layouit... No good idea about balance, though, and pathing will probably be pretty confusing.

Maybe make those mineral onlies a bit more worthwhile? They're pretty much the late game expos to fight about and they are just so vulnerable, which will make drawn out games pretty hard for Zerg.

I would also suggest giving the mains a vision blocking wall, like on Pathfinder, so tanks cannot as easily controll so much ground around them, but admittedly that is hard to do on desert, so instead maybe add just some clutter and try to optimize overall use of space so the mains don't end up too small.

I would also remove the mineral blocked ramp and instead put a mineral block on the ramp leading to the tight middle path, or Protoss will just die vs. Zerg.

Mutas will be strong here with all the free spaces, exposed main minerals and short air dsitances, so I would add more space for turrets and vision behind the natural minerals with open ground and/or tar.
My guess is Excalibur.
It's Crystal, just look at those ramps.
Those ramps are ugly. I edited my desert ramp pallette. I uploaded ugly ones on this site.
"Those ramps are ugly."
"I uploaded ugly ones on this site."

conclusion by basic propositional logic: This is yours.
modified by Freakling
My mineral formations do not look like that.
Good point. It's Negative. The minerals in the N main tell me that... They are comsat optimized, and he's the only one I explained how to do that in detail...
Seriously Cardinal? I thought it was well known that I am not capable of executing a map of this level. v.v
If I mineral block the short path, wouldn't it be likely that it just won't ever be used?

@Excalibur: Sure you are, you've had a lot of great map ideas. Plus I've noticed you use backdoor paths a lot, so I can see how this map looks like something you'd make.
modified by NegativeZero
Maybe put a D-web so that one probe can block incoming lings? Or use a weak neutral building like a comsat at the flat ground choke
Protoss needs to be able to survive early ling allins as well as Hydra busts when going for FE... So some kind of sturdy block is needed for the backdoor path. Dweb relies a bot too much on unit positioning, and you can easily screw that up with any kind of stack glitch (burrow some lings on top of each other, use an ovi to gain vision and send a drone mining, then stop...)

And that new nat backddor might be problematice because you can park tanks behind it to snipe units coming down the main ramp. It's far from the oppenent though, so it may not be an issue.

I would also try and make the cetral path as wide as possible, to allow for more flanking space.
modified by Freakling

Some things I would do, no idea if they\'re good ideas or not.

At corner expos turn into bridges/tar, would look really nice if executed properly.

Make cliffs along edges to compensate for the unused tiles from SC's interface, that way they're equal.

Add second Dweb.

Widen ramps at 9/5 expos.

Delete a little bit of cliffs by said ramp and across to eliminate choke point, keep map open.

Fill cliffs a bit in center because fuck tanks.
modified by Freakling
"At corner expos turn into bridges/tar, would look really nice if executed properly."
Would also make ot hard for P to Pylon-wall or for Z to set up a proper Simcity

"Make cliffs along edges to compensate for the unused tiles from SC's interface, that way they're equal."
I am assuming he just does this. Cliffs in some spots would still be good for drops, ovi scouts, mutas, carriers etc., but for the most part, due to how much space is restricted by the mains in this layout, I would put more priority into keeping the paths as open as possible.

"Add second Dweb."
Wouldn\'t that just make fighting there totally awkward to impossible?

"Widen ramps at 9/5 expos."
Maybe, should still be easily Pylon wallable though, or PvT lategame will be hard.

"Delete a little bit of cliffs by said ramp and across to eliminate choke point, keep map open."
Probably a good idea, given that tanks already have good siege angles anyway.

"Fill cliffs a bit in center because fuck tanks."
As I said, I think the centre should be as open as possible, fine adjusting tank angles for those tight backdoor paths is probably an advanced art form :P

You have to link to the actual image, not the imgur page, for it to display...
modified by Freakling
Maybe eggs on the ramp instead of D webs. 4 eggs like Central Plains. You can put a mineral at top and bottom for worker scouting if you wanted.

Excalibur I like your maps and execution :)
modified by CardinalAllin
Thank you Cardinal. c: I'm my own worst critic. :P
I would widen it up overall, tanks as always will be a problem...also has the tile assymetry thing been dealt with?
You can also deal with the close choke just by planting say a neutral unit there like a siege tank (eggs are pretty hard to kill)
Siege tank, even a hero siege tank, is just too easy to tear down with Zerglings or any other early agression. Eggs would actually be the best solution here, I think. They can still be taken down with early agression, but you have some reaction. And later on they are destroyed pretty easily. If you want to make it easier for the attacker to break in, just place them so they are on low ground (normal desert ramps are mostly low ground anyway)

Pretty sure the Dwebs as they are placed right now will not show up and cause an error message in-game. They need to be placed on completely walkable ground (but as I said, I'd rather use eggs here).

And the map dimensions are actually 112x126 right now, so the once it's rescaled to proper size tile asymmetry will be accounted for.
modified by Freakling
How about calling this (2)Trespass?
I'm considering switching this to jungle tileset so I can add temple walls around the mains' edges, similar to Atlantis. Only thing is I was looking forward to finally making a desert map, especially since 2p desert maps are pretty rare...
You could also just make the main low ground, although that of course makes it more vulnerable to be sieged down... I guess High Ground main with a wall is optimal for this kind of map (I guess Pathfinder got that right...).

You could try something like the outpost cliffs on (2)Hush.
modified by Freakling
Something like this:


You could always make it look nicer with some doodad sprites.
What are the values of the mineral block?
We should do some testing to see whether "force fields" benefit P or T in engagements (tanks and vulture shots missing vs dragoons missing mines) maybe putting force fields by the ridges will help Protoss to balance out siege tank efficiency
Cover tiles ("force fields") are T>P because of mines. Only case where it helps Protoss is when they somehow manage to get a gazillion zealots within t's tank formation, because then tanks will just splash each other to death...

I like desert maps...
To be honest, I would just go for the "dirty solution" and use sprites:
Desert walls
This is just some quick and dirty 5 minute job, you should be able to make it look much nicer with some work and creativity.
modified by Freakling
Dirt? because its desert haha.. :P
What are the dimensions of the map? Maybe more width I.e. 112 would be better
Lol I just always worry about tank power
Battle Royal was 128x128.
Just played around with doodads a bit more. Here are the ideas are came up with:


Figure out how many sprites you will need beforehand, because you are on a 256 limit obviously.

And don't worry about Valkyrie bug, pure sprite limit does not affect weapon sprite limit.
It's already 112x128 (technically 112x126 right now). Should I increase it to 128x128?

Also those cliff blends look good, thanks for putting that together. I'll definitely use one of them, but don't expect any major map updates soon since I'll be very busy for the next week or so.
I would say: With a map layout like this, a (2)128x128 map would certainly be justifiable, but I'd keep it 128x112 if possible.
I added some GMCS to show where I would put stuff...

You should also consider giving one or two of your expos 8 mineral patches.
Has this addressed the tile assymetry issue?
Whats the thinking behind making these walls?
Is it to make defensive tanks in the main less able to protect the back path? If so, T can just float the ebay over the wall.

There some good reasons not to make these walls:
1. Alot of copy paste work.
2. Makes the mains smaller, which you definately dont want.
3. Makes mutas, carriers and drops stronger which is definately not needed, and probably not wanted.

As for making the map wider, I vote yes. Its not too much extra work and would let you make the back paths bigger, the expansions bigger, and the 2 angled ridges wider.

I think you should be careful about moving the mains closer to the edges so as not to make the back paths too small.
It's pretty much for tanks. I think it is required to make such a concpet work.

Think of (3)Pathfinder, for example, which has walls at equivalent spots.

Yes, you can "just float an ebay(/rax/science facility/whatever other building you do not need), but terran will only have a limited amount of those (usually only about 2), which limits the amount of vision they can grant you and using them to spot that path means you cannot us them as forward scouts for anything else, and any buildings or air units out there will be exposed (so you can try and snipe them), which tanks in the mains aren't.

And I only suggested a wall at the two "exposed" sides of the mains (that are also far from the enemy) because too much wall, as you observed correctly, makes any kind of air tactic stronger, which can overblow pretty quickly (just think of (2)Battle Royale, for exammple).

Copy paste work... Well yes... Sometimes you actually have to put work into it to make it work. life isn't fair I guess.

Smaller mains: Not really, you'll need less clutter around them, if anything you can probably even make them bigger in some spots.
Yeah a wall along the back and side of the mains would be good. Prioritize space for units over clutter, aiming for nice big mains and nice big back paths. Otherwise they wont be used no matter if there are tanks in the main or not.

About the copy paste stuff, I just meant that the map is very quirky, and is in early development so obviously get the more urgent things done first and then see if its worth doing the time consuming bits.
I think this map is gunna be worth it though!
I posted that comment above, then turned off and went to bed. Only then did I work out how incredibly stupid the comment was :/
The whole point of the discussion was about changing to the jungle tileset specifically for a wall.
So yeah thats what happens when you post without taking enough time to think first. I prefer lurking, lurking is so much easier haha.
I don't like jungle cuz there are too many
Would the use of sunken High ground be appropriate?
Really want to see this map finished
This layout gave me an idea i'll make a new map soon if not too lazy ^^
Is this gonna see completion any time soon?
maybe "soon" by blizzard's definition...
modified by NegativeZero
Totally bump this. I guess, unfortunately for us, NeagativeZero is more of a successful SC2 map maker now and probably lacks time and motivation to ever finish this. So I'd like to ask for permission to remake this map myself.
hi i still come here sometimes

sure go right ahead, you can even use my original map file if you want. you'll probably do a better job on it than i ever could.

and for the record, even though i do sc2 maps now, i still think bw is the better game :P one of the big reasons i stopped making bw maps is just that i never played or even followed the game at anything remotely approaching a competent level, so i didn't really feel comfortable making maps where i couldn't effectively predict balance or strategies (such as this one). anyway freakling has probably made enough good maps to last at least another several years of bw competition.

actually one of the sc2 mapmakers i talk to started trying out the bw editor, maybe freakling can mentor him or something..
modified by NegativeZero
I was thinking that this may be a good to try out 120x128 as map format...

Maybe I should install skype again...
modified by Freakling
why not just 128x128? it's only 8 tiles wider, but you have the guarantee of starcraft not crashing.
I like to try out new stuff ;D
All testing so far suggests that all 128xX (96<=X<=128) formats work.
NegativeZero, was the SC2 mapper you mentioned Meavis by any chance?

Yes I meant to write Meavis, me and him have PMed on tl, I sent him links to some ramp pallettes etc.
modified by CardinalAllin
Nope it was meavis. I already tried convincing meerel to make bw maps a while ago, i think he's content on doing his sc2 remakes lol.

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