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Last update for (3)HEL_Demian_1 : 2015, 11, 19 13:08
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4768 (3)HEL_Demian_1 128*128LatiAs [Team Again]1.5leagueground

The map has been rated 48 times and got a total of 71 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


Freakling
Uploaded these to make for better map discussion.
outscar
I don't like Avalon, but this one is good. I think it should be in new iccup map pack to be tested.
modified by outscar
Freakling
Found some bugged minerals ; ironically of them in the mains so far...
CardinalAllin
Love it.

Something important, siege tanks can hit the natural building from behind the wall. This affects TvT rax expand and also PvT.
Gunna be some good fights around that area with shuttle bombs and reavers dropped onto the high ground thirds etc.
This also makes the bottom spawn slightly weaker for Protoss in PvT (especially when Terran spawns at the top) cus the shuttle cant access the high ground third from as many angles. Not problematically though, just mentioning it.

For Terran in TvP, the thirds are far away, require defense of several wide entrances, and are positioned in a straight line from the main and nat.
Its a bit tricky for Terran. Ive just released Latin Quarter and the thirds are quite tough there too though.
Ofcourse this affects PvZ too.

I like the shape of the high ground terrain that leads into the thirds from the thin ramp. Its nicely sculpted in all 3 spawns. Will be fun to fight there, microing around it and choosing how to position tanks there etc. Its quite windy and slow for reinforcements, but will be fun to watch the pros controlling that.

Note the small gap in the cliff behind the nats which weaken mutas a little; helping to smooth out the strength boost that mutas get on 3 player maps through more exposed mains(generally)(and nats too etc).

teal main (right) might get recalled more often. Mains that are vulnerable to air is the nature of 3 player maps though.

Very excited to watch the pros playing on this one. I also think it should be in the new iccup map pack, not to be tested but to be played!
CardinalAllin
Might have been tempted to change the 3rds so that they have 3 small ramps. The new small ramp would lead to the 4th base.
Freakling
I think it's better this way. Would else be too much like Varens Töväder or Reap the Storm :P But seriously, I actually like how the 3rd and 4th are separated from each other here.

Another thing I would look out for is Hydra/Lurker Breaks in PvZ, because of how open the nat choke and the area in front is (though probably not as bad as Pathfinder) and I guess the relatively long nat to nat distances (due to being a three player map) offers some deterrence against that. and quick Reavers into Reaver-Sair seems like a logical choice on this map, so maybe it's not a problem at all.
CardinalAllin
Yeah so do I, was more of just a passing thought.

I agree that its not a problem overall but yes, the map is centred around aggression against the 3rd base.
The expansions each have 7 minerals. If you successfully take your 3rd base, but then lose it after a couple of minutes, it will be relatively costly to retake it, and you have to try to retake it because there isnt really a good alternative 3rd.
Protoss suffers from these kind of things the most, especially vs Zerg.
And ofcourse, if Protoss gets onto 4 base, but then loses it, he cant save his workers.
These things make the map less conducive to come backs.
CrystalDrag
Not sure, but think that tanks can shoot blue's natural minerals easier.
Freakling
From the vods, seems like the versions currently used in KSL have updated mineral lines.
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Updated with 1.01 version
Testbug
Amazing.

I made a map exactly like this one about 5 years ago. I never uploaded to the site, and i don't have it anymore. Nightmarjoo and Crackling helped me a lot with the totational balance.

..This quality of maps, make me miss those good old times.
sTY_leZerg-eX
WOwowowow MAP!!
LatiAs
Actually, Minerals at 7 was located under the starting, and at 11 was above, because of mutalisks.

However some pros claimed about it, so I had no choice but to fixed them.

I think they dont like to set resources horizonal.
Freakling
I wonder why that is ?
Freakling
The main recurring problem I noticed with your maps is that they all have a lot of mining problems (workers taking bad paths).

Lately I am getting a lot of requests for maps from people running small tourneys on teamliquid.net. I have promoted some of your maps as well, but I'd like to have these problems fixed before the maps are used.
So I'd appreciate your feedback on this, or a quick thumbs-up to do these small final edits myself.
LatiAs
I don't have enough time until December because of my CSAT...
What maps do you want to use?
Freakling
I have played around with this a little. These would be my suggested changes:



Just some changes in mineral formations, as yo can see, to fix some issues such as:
  • workers taking bugged paths to mineral patches
  • workers migrating through gaps behind mineral line
  • general inequalities in mining rates


This Amateur Teamleague is going to use the map. If you agree with the changes, I will send Shimy the new version.

Also, out of curiosity: What does the map description say?
modified by Freakling
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Another thing I wanted to mention:

As there was a lot of cheese/proxy bunkering/containing going on on this map during Kongdoo/HungryApp Starz League, I think it might be worth considering to add some more unbuildable ground around the naturals.
LatiAs
1. Map description :

"Der Vogel kämpft sich aus dem Ei.
Das Ei ist die Welt.
Wer geboren werden will, muss eine Welt zerstören."

= The bird fights itself from the egg.
The egg is the world.
Who wants to be born, must destroy a world.

...It is right sentense? I have no idea.


2. Mind use 8-barrack because his position was 11'o clock, so he can block his 2nd base's path with 2 supply depots and 1 barrack easily.

Other bases can't be blocked with 2S1B. That is why Mind didn't use bunkering in game with Killer.

And distance between two bases is longer than FS. I don't think that bunkering is significant problem.

Plus, Zerg is too strong than Terran and Protoss in Amatuer cafe league, and also Mind and Killer said that Zerg is better at Demian in interview.
LatiAs
3. I agree that 1st and 2nd base's mining rates must be equalized, however, I don't think after 3rd bases are not important.

Of course they might just as well be fixed, but I can't feel the strong necessity...

In your point, Fighting Spirits and other official maps must be fixed too.
Freakling
I was also thinking of the tank contain Mind beat Bisu with.

The translation seems fine (and I actually speak German). It\'s a very nice quote.

I agree that mining balance gets less important the farther down the order an axpansion is, but it does certainly not hurt either (unless it leads to other, more pressing balance concerns).
So what about my suggested changes? Can I just go ahead with them?

Your point about FS / Kespa era maps in general is, unfortunately, a very valid one :\
modified by Freakling
LatiAs
Yep. Use new one. And please fix version script in map description and trigger from 1.01 to 1.1(or any number you want).

And can you upload new version here? or please mail to kartanes@naver.com
Freakling
Thanks. I'll upload it here.

EDIT: Updated
modified by Freakling
CardinalAllin
19th November 2015
-Changed name from 1.01 to 1.02
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