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Last update for (4)Kiseyras 2.25 : 2018, 12, 25 02:04
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4805 (4)Kiseyras 2.25 128*128CrystalDrag3.4finalground

The map has been rated 24 times and got a total of 82 points
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Comments:   GMCS (6 elements)


Excalibur
이미지 - image
제작자 - producer/creator
인원수 - number of players
타일수 - tileset
스타일 - style
러쉬거리(본진 입구) - rush distance(main entrance to main entrance)
맵의 컨셉 및 특징 - map concept and features

---

v2.24
제작자 - CrystalDrag
인원수 - 4
타일수 - 밀림(Jungle), 128 x 128

러쉬거리(본진 입구) -
빨간 - 푸른 32s
빨간 - 녹색 41s
빨간 - 자 33s

맵의 컨셉 및 특징 -
푸른 노동자
반 섬
시력 블록

---

Judging by the way the picture is colored I almost want to say Nasty made this one but I can't be sure.
modified by Hyoyeon
Freakling
So some one actually read my posts.

But why make it Jungle terrain? :\ I'd almost guess it's Kardinal, just based on that.
In this stage it is easily converted to Desert, though...
CrystalDrag
I hate desert ramps.
And the bridge decoration.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
So you are remaking this yourself now?
Can you also move the bottom mains two tiles up then for cliff area compensation?

What's wrong with Desert ramps and your bridge deco?
CrystalDrag
This post is not displayed due to its content
Freakling
Whatever you decide to stick with, just make sure that it looks just fantastic :D
modified by Freakling
LatiAs
Maybe 11 and 5's mineral can be protected from mutals easier than 1 and 7.
And they also have more opened path to center.
Freakling
11/5's minerals will be farther from the edge of the map though, so there's more room for Mutas to manoeuvre.
Either way, formation of 6/12 mains can easily be changed around a bit to make them a bit more vulnerable. But with the close air distances, keeping them as safe as possible should probably have priority (the super vulnerable mineral lines of the old version were really its major shortcoming).

Either way, positional variety is probably not going to be any more critical than on maps like Python, or most three player maps.
Freakling
As for the uneven areas in front of the nats, I added some GMCS. Just move everything by ~two tiles and it will probably suffice (plus some fine tuning along the cliffs).
Freakling
However, you should probably try and equalize main sizes. Editing the main borders may also help redistribute some space on the low ground.
CrystalDrag
Which mains are bigger, and which naturals are smaller?
Freakling
Judge yourself. I am mostly refering to LatiaS's comment about equalizing the areas in front of the nats a bit more.
CardinalAllin
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
Decoration from long ago on the left, newer decoration on the right...
Freakling
I wonder whether it would be possible to run some kind of map testing competition before the next ICCup map pack comes out.
What's the general idea about adding new maops right now, Cardinal?
Freakling
Some thoughts: Remember to have an eye on the difference of vision range between the temple and dirt cliffs (very important for balance vs mutas). You might be better off editing the dirt cliffs rather than offsetting the temples, as you do now (I think you know what I mean).

Seeing the direction the deco is going right now, have you considered adding vision blockers to the semi-island expansion passage? Or maybe even to the central plateau? I find these a very convenient ways of weakening certain tank positions.

For your main ramps, have a look at the ones on (4)Everflow. You'd need to mirror them, but otherwise they address exactly the issue you face here.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
Now i am super depressed about the vision range and have no desire to work on this anymore.
Thinking about it, i am going to replace the high grounds with more temple.

And your tile guide is missing the pictures of jungle.. unless it was only the one tile on Outboxer? And the tile editing is quite ugly for the semi-islands.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
No, I mean the tile from (2)Mist.
Freakling
And remember not to always be so hard on yourself. Just place some neutral overlord unit sprites in different distances on top of the cliffs and look in-game how far yo can see them. It might actually be fine as it is.
CrystalDrag
(2)Mist isnt in the database.

And the vision is different for the
-> high terrain north-low terrain south. two mutas are visible on the high temple, while only one is visible on the high ground.
-> low terrain north-high terrain south there are specific places for high ground to see three mutalisks instead of the high temple which only shows 2.

vision for the east-west cliffs are the same.
So the solution is to replace the top left natural with high temple, and everything else is fine.

However, im not convinced to continue with vision blockers. You can't see the minerals to walk past afterall..

modified by CrystalDrag
CrystalDrag
What if i was to create a Ravine between the two high ground expansions.
Freakling
Not quite sure what you have in mind.
CrystalDrag
in that case, what about the absence of vision blocker in the jungle terrain?
Freakling
There actually is a ruin doodad tile that works. I somehow overlooked it when searching for vision blocking tiles.
CrystalDrag
the middle of the map is always hardest to create.
And is there any proposed solution for the minerals to walk through the wall?
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
You don't need to put vision blockers directly under the wall... Otherwise, you can of course put the minerals directly below the eggs, which would allow workers to slip through via collision with the eggs.
It was just an idea, I don't think this map absolutely needs vision blockers, but I also think they are an underused concept that could fit in nicely in some spots here.
Freakling
I don't know, I think I liked the original middle better...
Freakling
And now? Bridges? I'll just assume you'll make it less straight...
CrystalDrag
Was going to make the bridges have the vision blocking.

How do i do mineral debugging? Start as Z, then T P?
And a shame high ruins does not have a vision blocking tile.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
They don't O_o ?!

Okay, tested it, they actually don't.

Now this finally at least probably explains how I could have overlooked that one tile in my original screening...

If you wanted them to place where you now have put that band of bones, you had the same idea as I originally had...

Having vision blockers on the low ground instead is not a bad idea, though, basically does the same for the mineral onlies which it woulöd have done for the high ground expos... But why have you made one wide band out of the two? It's a bit weird how it flows into the ramp now.

I don't think this map is so standard and trivial that it needs the neutral CC as a special feature.

As for the resource testing, yes, just test through all races, fix bugs as you discover them.
And if you encounter some very hard to fix bug (like multiple bugged mineral patches at an expansion where you cannot really move stuff around a lot) - gradually edit some "random" terrain around the map, especially choke points. That will surprisingly often happen to fix it (by changing the pathing of the map...), as well as induce new random bugs in other places, of cours @_@
It is weird, but I actually debugged (3)Reap the Storm that way.

I am actually planning to have testing automated via a BWAPI bot at some point soon™... But until then, you're gonna be stuck with doing it yourself :\
Freakling
And avoid using the vertical ramp edges for the ruin edges, as they contain a high ground subtile.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
So if i was to make two bands, how would i shape them amd what would be the incentive to put between them(buildable ground/minature expo?)?
The bones are now justa representation where the ruins are, as a creep blocker for the high ground.
Freakling
What about making the vision barrier V or Y (with the statue [or some other doodad] as the node) shaped, so it separates the ramp and the two expansions?

Maybe add some more unbuildable ground in the centre. And instead of the CC you could put another statue/other doodad.
Freakling
I think you should move the NW-most ramp a bit to the left to solve some pathfinding issues (and likewise its mirror, obviously)
CardinalAllin
Wow very pretty updates.
I actually really liked the version with the valley in the middle :)
Freakling
Make a map of your own with that kind of middle :D
CardinalAllin
btw, have you changed from 8 patches in the nats?

Whichever map it was, I think top left was only 7 by mistake before, but now all are 7?

This map is going to need some pillars on the mud low ground to make a 3rd base easier to take at minimum.

I quite liked 8 patches in the nat for this map. The muta harass is stronger and the 3rd is so hard to take PvZ and TvP. Its a problem and I dont know what can be done really. Is an awesome 2v2 map at the least though! hehe
Freakling
I agree with the 8 patch naturals.

Could always make thicker egg walls to make the low ground 3rd harder to attack. Should also have lots of scarab holes, just to make reavers more viable for defending or breaking them (like in the desert version). And make sure chokes are wallable with 2 depots, so T can properly entrench with just a handful of tanks against P.

For the high ground expansions, there's some wiggling room with ramp widths and locations. I would also move the creep barrier closer to the expansions and add maybe a Statue doodad to each of them. The CC in the centre felt just expremely irritating when I looked at it in-game, though. I think there should be nothing blocking the middle in this map.

Some clutter around the mineral only (like some small temple walls/pillars) would probably do some good, though. And maybe add just a small cliff edge, so that at least the outer side can be pylon-walled. When all is lost, I guess half geysers could be added to the mineral onlies, Dante's Peak style. However, I think that would probably be too much.
CardinalAllin
Yep a small wall, a half gas, plus a couple of pillars. This will help make the min onlies proper viable 3rds.

I do think the centre as a valley is better, less split map that way, encourages glorious charges. If a terran was holding the centre hill at the moment, he can move from side to side without much hesitation strategically. Whereas if there was a valley, he will have to calculate the risk more. The centre is currently all vertical movement, but with a valley it introduces a bit of lateral movement too. Only a bit but it contributes a lot overall.
Freakling
People still like to play Tau Cross, which has only super open, not wallable expansions. I don't think every map needs super safe expansions à la FS. quite the contrary. The mineral onlies are already very close to the nats and have 7 patches. Saying they are no viable 3rds is exaggerated. You can pretty much defend them just by rallying your units there.
Giving all of them half gas would push the overall available amount over the top and would make expansing way too easy, I think. You could compensate by making the hill expos mineral only, but that would only massively shift playstyle from aggressive to turtly overall, and that's kind of boring.
CardinalAllin
I agree that you could leave the min onlies as they are for the most part if you want to. If you were to do that, I think Id put an 8th mineral patch at the nats, and still probably put a couple of pillars to the mud area. That would be very decent indeed.
CrystalDrag
v;2.00
some things:
-11/5 bases smaller
-1/7 Start locations moved closer to the x=0
-naturals 8->7, min only 6->7
-worker debug (i hope)

-am not going to revert back to the ravine
-Please note mud low ground is always going to ground terrain, and that only half of the naturals and min onlies are decorated in mud.. im suppose to add pillars to only half of the map?
-And i am not going to add anymore geysers to this map.


Things to do????
-move 11/5 ramps closer to the edge.
-Add 500 mineral patch back to naturals
-Change the 3/9 chokes from 8->6 tiles
-scarab holes in egg walls, either thicken wall or create 2nd wall
-spam 3/9 with polar bears to make safer
-clutter near min only
-extend high ground creep barrier
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
This post is not displayed due to its content
Freakling
Instead of making all the cliffs behind the nats temple, you could also make the ones at 3:30/9:30 normal high dirt clutter. That would would give you better cliff edges for wallins as an added benefit.
CardinalAllin
About the ravine, I wasnt expecting you to want to go back to that design CrystalDrag, I was just musing really.
For the record though Freakling, re-read my earlier comment. I liked the ravine because I said "less split map that way, encourages glorious charges."

About adding a half gas; I entertained the idea but again I wasnt expecting you CrystalDrag to want to add gas there. Indeed I said "I agree that you could leave the min onlies as they are for the most part if you want to."

So yeah its all good. Im happy with the centre being one big hill if you want it to be and with the 3rds being min only and quite wide open.
Kiseyras is a perfect candidate for a 3rd base of this nature.

Cool map :)

Lastly, its true I do like a good 3rd base. But to be fair the maps Ive been promoting have quite difficult to take 3rds! Infact that reminds me I havent uploaded the new version of Niobe with even harder to take 3rd base, its now low ground.
CrystalDrag
Any revision to the vision blockers with this before i make the change?
Freakling
Changes to the minonlies seem very nice, if that is what you mean. Any more would clutter the area up too much, I think, so I'd leave it just like that (assuming you can build similar Pylon walls at all locations).
Freakling
One more nitpick: You should abstain from using those ruins-like hole in the ground doodad tiles in the centre. They tend to screw with pathing quite a bit, even though they are fully walkable.
CrystalDrag
Proxies can be built in the low ground hehe. Worker pathing goes through the mineral-only high ground pillars.
Freakling
You mean proxies can be build in the triangle between ramp and vision wall? That is actually quite neat (not that it would not be easy to scout, nonetheless, but one needs to be aware of it, which makes for the best kind of map specific trolling ;P

I think this map is nearing perfection now :D
    Some final things:
  • I still think you should move the ramps as I suggested in the picture I posted. Would clear up some pathing and symmetry issues. Moving the geyseres of the high ground expos out of the way if required is no problem at their current positions (moving geysers counterclockwise from perpendicular positions is generally not); Move the creep barriers a bit closer to the expos accordingly.

  • I would also reduce the vision barriers to just one tile wide, not because I think it would make much of a difference in game play but because monotilespam looks kind of ugly. And maybe adding some of those ice world bush doodads (as on Pyrolysis, Vårens Töväder, Dies Iræ, Cross Game...) as a visual indicator would help (it is nice to players to raise their awareness when something they are not used to is going on; or even if just the ground is unbuildable or something, in fact; I think they call it map-readability in SC2 ;D)

  • I would also still like the eggs being spread out with scarab gaps in between. No reason to hinder Reavers as a defensive tool.
    Just saw in editor that you already did...

  • Last step would be resources, of course. Before you even start the testing/editing debugging cycle, I suggest you make the following changes:
    - top left main: put the bottommost mineral patch around the edge on top to allow creep spread behind the mineral line
    - make sure mineral formations in the bottom right corner of a town hall look like this:

    + + + +
    + T H + = town hall
    + + + +
    # # = mineral patch
    . = free tile
    ? = does not matter

    + + + + . . . ? ? ?
    + T H + . . . ? ? ?
    + + + + . . . ? ? ?
    . . . . . . . . # #
    . . . . . . . # # .
    . . . . . . . . . . <-- gap!
    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? . .


  • How about this blend? Sometimes simpler is better.


modified by Freakling
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
I moved the indicated ramp -_- Just compare the two images.

Bushes dont grow on ruins -_- how many sprites should be left available for valkyries?

I would also still like the eggs being spread out with scarab gaps in between. No reason to hinder Reavers as a defensive tool.

Shall see with the mineral balancing.

and i will gladly steal that blend.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
"I moved the indicated ramp -_- Just compare the two images."
Okay, you are right insofar you as you moved the indicated ramps.
In the wrong direction, however O_o

"Bushes dont grow on ruins -_- how many sprites should be left available for valkyries?"
Don't worre about Valkyries. The problem with Valkyries is not the absolute sprite limit but with weapon sprite limit - which does not get any less nonsensically small by being stingy with doodad sprites.
But of course bushes grow on ruins. Have you never been in the mountains? It's the same principle: They simply grow their roots through the cracks. I have seen birches grow on steel tanks and whole trees grow on walls;
like this or any of these.
And not just single trees, but whole forests.
Damn, trees can even grow on other trees!
If you let the bloody shrubs have it their way, they will simply swallow a whole city...
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
i would argue that those are more that bushes...
anyway....

----
v2.11. right before i start to do any resource balancing. anything i need to change? i moved the ramps already.

the 1 main is very frustrating as Z extractor is fine but P assim is not optimal whatsoever. already tried moving its position 1/2 tile to the left as well as a tile upward, all of those resulted in bad mining for the Z extractor
modified by CrystalDrag
CardinalAllin
This post is not displayed due to its content
Freakling
Okay, I toyed around a bit with Protoss. I fixed some tiles and did some of the more obvious fixes to mineral lines...

Some things I found and could not quickly patch up completely:


  • top right main gas seems indeed a bit wonky. Also mineral#2 is a bit weird right now

  • top right natural, bottom mineral is still unstable and probably very badly mining with comast

  • bottom left mineral only seems to have at least 3 adjacent patch positions badly bugged, which sucks because this kind of thing is almost impossible to fix by just juggling patches around.


This is just for Protoss, but the good news is that this is a better starting point than most maps... Unfortunately any of these also is very hard (to impossible) to fix by simply editing formations. So What you should aim to do instead is do terrain edits. Here's what I would try:

  • first of, I would move the creep barriers on the high ground (and the statue doodads on them) a bit closer to the expansions (more or less equally trisecting the high ground is what I would aim for) This will probably not do much, though (Adding statue doodads on the low ground seems not to have done much, at least

  • The next thing you could do just toy around with the terain around the "egg expansions". It does not really matter what exactly you change - just move chokes and cliffs around a bit. The point is that this is an area with some wiggling room for symmetry and lots of "dead space" around to work with with lots of tight chokes, so every change you make is likely to effect map pathing and thus could fix some issues. Just rinse and repeat this until all issues not fixable by switching resources around are gone, then fix whatever issues are left.

crystaldrag
Get that bwpai or whatever the bot name is called :)hire someone who could be bored on TL keke.
About balancing through terrain
-does changing the "dead space" (high ground at 3/9) by redistributing tile editing do anything?
-does the tile have to be accessible to units by the walking?
-different terrain? (high ground vs high jungle)
-doodad placement
modified by crystaldrag
Freakling
Problem is: I do not have time to even really work on maps right now. I read up on some stuff, and BWAPI could really do all kinds of testing... I asked Letabot, and he showed interest, but said he had some other project to finish first. Bottom line is: It's probably going to be a few more month before such a thing exists...

My experience is: The more what you edit resembles a choke point, the more it will change overall pathing (which makes sense, given that changing a choke point is more significant to the pathing of a map overall than changing something else).
Changing the "dead space" (i.e. completely unwalkable terrain) will probably do nothing or not much at least, everything about BW pathfinding is utterly weird, so one never knows.
changing one standard terrain for another (p.e. jungle for dirt) does nothing, though (luckily, otherwise decorating would screw up everything!).
For certain doodad tiles (like ramp or bridges tiles, or any other partially unwalkable doodads), even if they are themselves fully walkable, changing them can change pathing to some extend at least locally, but overall that effect is not really big. What I mean you should do is editing cliffs, so the exact location of choke points shifts around a bit. In my experience, moving as little as one ramp around for merely on iso can make half a dozen random mining bugs flare up on multiple map locations (or, conversely, conveniently fix them. It\'s probably the best method to fix stuff like clusters of bad minerals, where there are simply too many of them clustered in one spot to just dodge them or move town hall location around for a tile in some direction).
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
v2.13 tenative final version.
Freakling
So you have taken it upon yourself to finish this?!
CrystalDrag
moving the 1/6 one tile closer to the edge along with moving the low ground third\'s choke seem to have fixed the gas..
in some expansions workers have to manually mine the correct mineral at an angle for the orbit to be fixed.

should i publish on tl?. or make cardinal do it for me.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
"in some expansions workers have to manually mine the correct mineral at an angle for the orbit to be fixed"

will those bugs fix themselves automatically through worker migration? If yes, I'd consider it alright.
CrystalDrag
o_o
CardinalAllin
A funny way of asking but Id happily publish it for you. (Going camping so it would be in a few days though)

You changed the 8th mineral patch to 500. Hmm, Id probably go for a full 1500 personally.

Id love to edit just a handful of tiles, nothing big just aesthetics. Id record which and show you first.
Also the version number on release should be 0.9 in my opinion. This gives you 9 clean edits (0.91, 0.92, 0.93 etc) through the playtesting phase (more if needed) before releasing version 1.0. Its just a bit confusing when a map is on version 2.13 for the wider community when its the first time they have seen it. What do you think though?
crystaldrag
With the natural being close to the mineral onlies which have seven I feel it is good enough.

There is symmetry in nature, ya know? Alot of decoration on the map was intentional, I find it hard to find a place I have changed in some way.

.90 is a badd number.. How about 0.01?
Freakling
Meh, you skipped over my edits (->Obs version upload).
I suggest you at least pick© the vision blocker areas from that, as I cleaned it up a lot.
Freakling
Making it version 0.9 is nonsensical. You are overthinking this a lot, Kardinal.
2.13 tells every one that the map has already some history and a lot of fine tuning behind it, even though they may not know or even care about the details.
Arbitrarily calling this version 0.90, on the other had, would be what's really confusing for any one who actually cares.
CrystalDrag
v2.14 - stole freakling's vision blocker areas.
Freakling
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
what ramp did you change ._.
Freakling
Not ramp, just removed ramp tiles with high ground spots from ruin to dirt transitions.
CrystalDrag
Did you upload it into the melee or the obs version?
Freakling
melee
crystaldrag
Should there be concern for inverted ramps that use the rightmost tile along the edge?
Freakling
You means something like the SW main ramp? Not really, because there is a terrain level transition anyway, since it is a ramp after all.
CrystalDrag
Mkay.
And it might be better that i publish it myself so i can do future edits. But it probably wouldn't attract much attention with the recent events that have happened.
Freakling
Cardinal, what about new additions to new ICCup map pack?!
CrystalDrag
how long has it been since desterc and cross game have been added to the map pack?
Freakling
A while...

top left nat has a lot of worker migration through the gap behind the minerals. You should change that.
crystaldrag
Will upload tomorro. Perhaps cardinal does not have experience camping and has met a terrible fate.
v2.15-the minerals
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Similar problem (not quite as bad) at the bottom left nat. I suggest you just move the six patches to the left one tile to the right to close that gap-
CrystalDrag
bottom left or right?.
Freakling
sorry, you are right, I meant bot right.
CardinalAllin
Version number: Its not version 2, its version 1 and hasnt been finished yet, thats why I suggest 0.9 when you release it on teamliquid. To me that makes a lot of sense but Im not going to get upset if you dont. The only saving grace is that it is a remake of Saryesik Atyrau so version 2 kind of makes sense in this particular case. Im not worried about this and I leave it up to you.

Publish it yourself: Yes that would be a good idea actually for the reason you mention; so you can edit it later.

iCCup map pack: The new season has started now.

-Roadkill ramp bug is the main thing Id like to fix, is it ready?

-Desertec changes (mining in main? and path to 3rds) would be nice but is low priority, is it ready?

-Cross Game shortest route pathing is not a priority. If Cross Game is going to get an update then Im tempted to make some changes to make the min only a bit easier to take, not sure though.

-Overwatch by NegativeZero too, maybe an area of buildable ground on the path to the 3rd at the foot of the hill.

Taebaek Sanmaek and as yet unseen ‘Overwatch’ would presumably go in to the map pack when they get released properly.
Reap The Storm, Kiseyras, Vitriol, Darkness, Niobe are my personal favourites for potential new maps eventually maybe.

I didn’t meet my untimely demise but I did get bitten by 3 ticks :)
CrystalDrag
2.16
Freakling
There's a stack bug on the top left main ramp.
crystalDRAG
should i replace the entire ramp?
Freakling
move it a bit (i.e. by one cliff section)! And the mirror as well. This could induce new mining bugs, of course, but such is life. Test the ramps, if they are okay, retest the resources.

Cardinal will probably tell you to avoid the work and just replace the offending tile ;D You would probably have to make it fully walkable, though, and that would make the ramp noticeably wider at that spot.
CrystalDrag
changing to location does not seem to affect mining bugs i think.

With the reduced chokes to the 3rds, should PvZ be easy to secure the 3rd with the 6 tile chokes? thinking about what Eonzerg said.
a) temple block with egg/mineral for worker hopping
b) empty
c) arbiter egg
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
a temple block would have the advantage of being arbitrarily hard to break, whereas now a lot of unit make very quick work of them (four scarabs with damage upgrade, two storms or one plague plus x to mention the fasted, though also most high-tech variants).
Nothing at all still seems to be potential trouble for Protoss in vertical matchups.
CrystalDrag
There we go
Freakling
Can scarabs pass between or around the temples?
crystaldrag
Scarabs can pass between the temple, zerglings cannot.
Mineral hopping would be rather slow as they would have to place the unit horizontal to the mineral patch, as the egg occupies the entire vertical space of the egg
modified by crystaldrag
CrystalDrag
some tile editing
Freakling
Anything changed besides improved clutter?

Edit: I see. Nice deco :D
modified by Freakling
crystaldrag
It\'s nice deco if it was heavily inspired from Atlantis :P though I also edited rocky ground for better appearance. This is prob going to be last time I touch. 2.20 is a nice number
now lets wait for cardinal? Huehue.


Updated the obs version
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
I fixed a mining bug at top right nat (only melee version updated).
CrystalDrag
obs updated

edit : You used an older version... :/ accidentally replaced the files i had.... Do you happen to have the version with the pillar sprites in the top right that you can upload
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Sorry, I used the newest version I had, was not aware there was an update in the meantime.
CrystalDrag
updated
Freakling
Units get stuck on the top left main ramp again :(
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
As pointed out in the wishlist of the TL forum, it is a problem with the ramp itself... So im going to have to create a custom ramp to replace it.
Freakling
I don't know which wishlist you are talking about (some "please blizzard fix this in a hypothetical patch" list, I guess), but it is only half-true, in that it is a problem with certain tiles (the most prominent of them being an edge tile on this ramp), but only in certain positions (although there was a similar, but position-independent, bug caused by a cliff edge tile on all inverted ramps on Cross Game...). It is
something to do with pathing in general, I guess (so pure chaos and probably never gonna be actually fixed, because no one actually wants pathing to be changed, and no sane programmer would probably want to touch the pathfinding code with a ten-foot-pole to figure out what's actually causing the bug).
Anyway, I tested it: You can fix it by moving the ramp one cliff section to the right (yes, I know this is just putting it back where it has been in version 2.0whatever and was bugged, but now it is not but is bugged in the new position instead...)
CrystalDrag
2.22 moved it
Crimson)S(hadow
maybe the ramps on the side of the middle should be 2 small ramps(instead of 1 large ramp), to incentivize players to go through the high grass to reach the larger ramps in the middle? just a thought.
modified by Crimson)S(hadow
Freakling
Seems like this map is going to be used for the TLFC!

Is the obs version up to date?
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
Crimsonshadow i think it's fine how it is
CrystalDrag
Yes the observer version is up to date. Just checked, the observer version was changed one minute after the melee version was uploaded.

Hard to see from the picture, but i used three bengals to change worker position for blue. Hopefully players wont be affected :D

Also the vision blockers.

I dont remember how many temples are stacked.
Or minerals.

hmmm...
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
I think it is five temples. No clue how many minerals... don't think it matters much.
Jukado
Cant wait to see some games on this in the teamliquid Fight Club.
iFU.eOnzErG
Hello guys,i posted in TL about,but maybe here will be faster ? i need an obs version of this map without black minimap,since there is not preview for UMS mode.I will be hosting obs games in preparation for the fightclub so yeah,will make our life more easier,thanks :)
Freakling
You go here!
I also added no-fog versions of Reap the Storm and CAS.
iFU.eOnzErG
thanks,i noticed the bottom expo from the left has some weird moves when u send drone to your natural(i did tit clicking mineral so maybe it is different sending it just to the natural.)
overall ,there is this unfortunate(fortunate for some) that u can perfect wall supply your expo as terran,i didnt play any terran but i did as terran and it just feel amazing,poor us (zerg users) now last the top left right being so close i have mixed feelings about,like it is very strong,dropship and shuttels drops is just crazy,the early scout with overlords,the wriaths play i believe is very strong on this map if you are terran playing top left,u can even wall and take a safe expansion,but hey the map is amazing and im sure can produce great games,now with fight club already started idk how fast is the situation to react.here are 2 good games i played https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLIxqlPKJA0 my oponent was a secret player,so it was 2 high lvl players playing this map.hf
JungleTerrain
Nice, thanks for playing on the map, im sure Crystal appreciates it
Freakling
I don't really get the point with the tit ;D

About the natural being completely wallable for T: Zero spoke out against this in his interview on TL. It can actually be difficult to make some chokes not wallable for T and still give P good options for FE. I guess using either eggs to selectively block buildings or purposely adding unbuildable tiles at one edge of the choke (like on Byzantium or Grand Line, for example) are the only general workable choices.
I guess the last point could be generalized as "short air distances on horizontal spawns"... Which is a feature inherent to this kind of symmetry. So just prepare your defences for it, I guess.
CrystalDrag
Regarding Chokes:
One thing i could try is making the choke points of the natural shorter (Think going from Benzene to Fighting Spirit).
This would be in the direction of the natural so they lose more potential space for cannons/tanks/rallying.
Would help hydralisk bursts I think?
Definitely needs to be looked at for 12/6.

As for air units being good, its just part of the symmetry. Of course, i never saw a spore colony in your main in both games :/


Looking at your games im proud of how vision blockers and those pillars influence fights.

For both games you are placing the hatchery four tiles below the gas at 9 on high ground. any reason why?
Why didn't you try to hop a worker over the temples while the zerglings were killing the temples?
iFU.eOnzErG
the way the minerals are place makes me think im placing the hatchery in the good place,take in mind im clicking that drones and putting a hatchery in a speed from my muscular memory,so i just need to be more careful about it,i wasnt exactly complaining about my games and the distance,i also i think fast mutas could be a big deal vs protoss or terran if we are close to each other,but again i ddint experiment it yet so.
JungleTerrain
On python the mains are closer, but Idk it's an older map
CrystalDrag
Sorry 'bout the mineral placements ;D I usually never straight lines of minerals, but it is necessary for those two.

Pythons the mains are closer, but there is low ground between the mains, so elevating using with slow overlords was a possibility.

TLFC 01
Unfortunately the games on Overwatch and CAS don't provide much in terms of balancing.
I did see some blending and tile editing that I disagree on though on CAS. :)
modified by CrystalDrag
iFU.eOnzErG
here is the video for C.A.S https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LTMpZKEKoY
Jukado
Thanks Freakling for making the no fog version.
What technique do you use to keep the mains blacked out?
Freakling
I just paint some FOW over them...

first disable fog for all players via scenario option.
Then paint a roughly circle shaped area of fog around the SLs with enough radius to hide creep from a hatch. If you press control while painting the fog, you are doing it for all players at once.
Jukado
Yeah, I thought I recalled having a problem in the past where it didnt display or update or something, so it made it a fiddly process. But Ive reinstalled scm draft a few times since then and seems fine now either way.
CrystalDrag
Thought: change 3/9 to be high ground with standard ramps.
Freakling
Why not. With this version currently being used in the TLFC, I would maybe rather keep it as it is for now and upload an alternative version with high ground 3rds. Maybe you should ask some of the fight club players what they would think of it.
Jukado
Personally I dont feel a need to do that. Its a quirky map with the close air distance, so islands (semi islands) fit in on it quite nicely.
Also a minor point but this map can sell itself by saying it has similarities to python, so the islands are good again.

I dont feel like changing them to high ground with standard ramps would gain anything much either.
If you really dont want them as islands then consider just deleting the neutral buildings and keeping them low ground. Could snip the cliff slightly so it can be used as a ground path more easily.

Map is already quite easy to lock down in top vs bottom map splits, so if the side bases were also high ground and thin ramps, it wouldnt alleviate that. It might get a bit claustrophobic having to always break up a ramp to get past the halfway line (even if you made them as double ramps rather than standard).
I can understand how someone might think there'd be an aesthetic quality of having a continuous ridge through the whole centre of the map though (grandline etc).
But Id probably choose to keep them as semi islands (if it aint broke dont fix it), or if they are to be ground accessible from the start then make them more easily used as ground paths to circumvent the middle (therefore low ground and a bit wider).

Like Freakling said, as this map is already being used, Id hold off (at the least). But honestly I dont think Id change it.
Encouraging a kind of air focused late game is a good thing for this map I think. Thats what makes it different. Its never going to be a standard style of balance map, so in my opinion let it be unique.

Actually, Id be tempted to make them into proper permanent islands. You could have the temples where they are still though. Killing the temples would allow you to get a bit closer so that siege tanks could hit some workers (but make it so they cant hit the building).
Yeah, why not do that? Permanent islands?
Freakling
No, just keep the temples. Removing the possibility of sneaky expos or completely removing that backdoor path as a mobility option would both only put unnecessary limits on the map.
Jukado
Using the side bases as a ground path can be less effective than desired in practice because they are thin and can be managed quite easily (and you have to destroy the neutral buildings, but this can sometimes be done ahead of time safely though).
In some ways P and Z would prefer to just have them as proper islands so they can defend them easier.

However, I agree I probably wouldnt actually make them fully island either. I like atleast providing the option of using them as ground side paths that skirt around the centre hill. And I like the slightly chaotic gameplay of this map. It felt like CrystalDrag was maybe thinking about trying to get slightly more stability so thats why I was taking a 2nd look at the full island option.
modified by Jukado
Freakling
Gameplay on a complex map needs to be given some time to stabilize, I guess.

If we have even seen a proper hidden expansion yet, I must have missed the occasion...
modified by Freakling
Freakling
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
I'm pretty sure i copy pasted the ruin pattern from you :P does the unit need to be specifically there? Is it only for the top side?
Not sure if it is that big of a gamechanging that warrants a new version
Freakling
It is probably my oversight... The unwalkable subtiles from the doodad stretch farther than the actual vision blocking ones. A possible fix could be to use some unwalkable tiles from the equivalent medium ground doodad to block the vision. But since the doodad sprite will cover it up anyways, you can use whatever, I guess, as long as it blocks vision.
It's just a small bugfix you should include in your next update. It is only on top, at the bottom there are vision blocking tiles all around the top edge of the doodad, so no gap can happen.
Hyoyeon
v2.24
Ramp vortex upper right fixed.
Observer Version not updated.

Damn ASL removed the posts for ASL4 submissions...

Tile editings looks horrible in HD :x
modified by Hyoyeon
modified by Hyoyeon
CrystalDrag
Changed ruin edge tiles from bridges for SC:R
Freakling
<3
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