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Last update for (4)Saphireus : 2006, 09, 10 00:44
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
199 (4)Saphireus 128*128Listoric0.7final

The map has been rated 56 times and got a total of 40 points
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Comments:   GMCS (1 elements)


Listoric
As this map is still not finished, i'm open for any suggestion. ("Sorry" to STIMEY, don`t want to fight with you, we're all just men :))
Listoric
Ah, first of: There aren't any doodads on this map, they will be set later.
hefty
Really interesting looking map. I don't got much to add.

One problem, though, could be that it will be very easy to push at close positions. Both zvt and pvt would be hard at clsoe positions, though t is at an disadvantage early game. And if t pushes to base, the first thing he will tear down is the main's townhall. There is no simple solutions to this, but you might pull the start positions a bit back, and down to make the travel between the bases a bit longer + the townhall would be more safe.

Be sure to make mains large enough for a whole base to fit in. As it is now, they seem a bit small, and with the changes I suggest you will need even more land. Perhabs you have to make land all the way into the corners of the map.
panschk
TvP would be very hard at the beginning. So it's only fair to make it terran friendly afterwards;)
Snooky
I like the look of this map, and I especially like the ramp with cliffs. Helps terran make up for the major openness of the middle. One thing I do not like is too much moolah. Take off either the side middle expos or the centered gas expos & add gas to the side ones. Its bad enough that there is 17 mineral patches & 2 geysers between the main and 1st nat.
Listoric
It`s hard for T at the beginning, but you can built a wall-in at the bridges, 2 supply, 1 rax. So even T should survive the first moments. The distances are almost the same between neighbours.
Listoric
Snooky, i don`t get how you would change the minerals. I read through it several times but it doesn`t make sense for me. What is this with 17 mineral patches and stuff?! :/
panschk
hefty and myself just had a couple of TvP on this map. Surviving early game is really hard for terran( In fact, hefty never managed to stay alive long enough to build his first expansion^^)

Making a proper wallin needs a lot of "training" here;)
Listoric
Yeah, its always like that or / ...

__RAX
_Supply
Supply

Wow, thx for testing :) I`d like to see a replay of the match!! :D

Best would be 2on2 or something, because my router won`t let me play a match with more than two players :/
Starparty
The idea with those bridges are very fun i think, but overall the idea could have been used in a better map :P I dont really like 4 players on this.. personally i would rather prefer to have a corner vs opposite corner and using the terrain on the remaining pos to something else...
STIMEY D OKGM FISH
the wide entrance is a little P>T Z>P and to a much lesser extent, favors Z>T. it's a cool idea, but these positions are so close. (-)

speaking of which, the close positions combined with the wide ramp probably is even more P>T but helps P>Z so (+) (-)

the in-base expo is interesting. what this means is that defending the wide entrance is also holding an expo, so this just means the equivalent of toss having to hold their expo asap. this idea is good but the distances are too short. (+)

terran pushes are just brutal on this map, even moreso for the side matchups. such a short distance to push. as if that weren't enough, they can shoot the nat from outside as well. (-)

i like the cliff over the 2nd nat. very cool (+)

beauty. it's not fucked up or anything, but it's no starparty map. probably a lot more jungle or a lot less would look better. i don't like the way the mud is mixed in right now. (-)

the overall layout is still cool, like white lies. i like your use of the temple in the middle, and the shape and size of your middle in general, including the general placement of the expos (if not their exact mineral shape). very good layout, but hard to balance the distances on a 128x128 map. maybe the mains could be closer to the corners and open toward the equator, otherwise i don't know how you can fit fair distances into this map.
STIMEY D OKGM FISH
(+)

so 4+ 4-. it's still fun to try to play the kind of pvz and tvp this map has, but you could probably help out those a bit more. pvz might be good on this map, it's hard to tell. there's no way tvp is okay though. since people like tvz on LT, this map is probably considered t>z since terran expos easily, distances are short (terran containment) etc.
panschk
lol you have strange ways to judge a map^^

U need to make the ramp more narrow imho, there is really no way terran can survive early game without being plain much better the way it is right now (tvp)
hefty
Rather than make it narrow, I'd suggest to increase distances (even if you can only slightly increase them), and make the entrance easier to wall. I tried severel wall types, but only walled succesfully at 5 o'clock (after losing the game to panschk :D ).

The expos behind the main can be tanked from outside the wall, but can't be lurker harassed. It's probably too t biased anyway, but if you keep it the way it is goons/lurks should be able to harass as well.

But the map has great potential imo. I probably can't be made completely balanced, but increasing the distances would improve it dramaticly.
Listoric
After i raed through your post`s i`d try to combine it to one:

First of, you sa it`s hard for T at the beginning, because of the harassment of Z or P. The bridges are all wall-able (afaik) with the same type of wall-in at every position, it may need a bit practise, but hey, we all practised walling at LT some years ago ;) After T survived with his wallin, it`s turning and T has a good chance to push. But if the harassment was succesfull, you probably would stop the push because of the tech advantage and it`s even again.

I will update it as soon i get to it. The distances may be too short and i hoped the lurker and goon harassment at the expansions would work, but i had no time testing it ingame. Thx for the comments. :)
STIMEY D OKGM FISH
the distances are short and there's no high ground advantage and it's wider than a ramp, so even though there is a wallin -- which i assumed there wasn't, mistakently -- it still is harsh. imagine a 2 gate proxy zeal on this map (pvt or pvz) and imagine a BBS. sounds like fun to me, but most people hate that shit.
panschk
Well let ppl hate all they want. Not everyone has to love the map, as long as it is balanced it is ok to me. That's the problem though, the map is not too far away from fastest balance wise (tvp). That's quite horrible.
STIMEY D OKGM FISH
I think comparing its balance to hunters would be more fair than fastest. Fastest's balance is fucked up because of the insance mineral rate and toss's ease of spending using only 1 worker.

the mains have 9 minerals, compared to LT's 8 -- the standard -- and hunters' 10. 9 minerals is an experiment popular on several league maps now, iirc. i'm not sure how people have judged it. last i heard, 9 minerals favors p>z (but could even out with other things that typically are z>p), and i haven't heard anything about 9 minerals on other matchups.
LOSERS
OMG !! WTF !? SHIT MAPS, SHIT PAGE !!! FU ALL !!
Starparty
You definitely got a suited smurfname chicken idiot.
Listoric
I changed the expansions to be shootable with Goons and Lurker as well, as well as i changed the startpositions just a bit towards the mapedge. If i would change the bridges towards the edges, the building space would be drastically small, so that isn't a good idea ^^

If someone could test this map ingame, that would be great, best would be 2on2. I just cant play 2on2 because my router suxx :/
Listoric
Ah, and now it "could" be possible even to try an FE at the Min-Only before the own base, but that is more like a suicide tactic ^^

Ah and, the geysirs at the startpoints are set there on purpose. I discovered something. Almost on every map, the geysir is pointing towards the back of the base. So, if the geysir is on top, the entrance is on bottom. I stumbled over this, because i always sent my probes in the opposite direction of my geysir, just to discover that i`m on "the wrong startposition", on the bottom of the map, but thought i was on top... ^^
panschk
Well Listoric, I think that's not a very good aproach. After playing a map a couple of times, you will get used to it, I know sometimes you stop thinking when you play, but thats not the way it should be. Like @7 on Gaema, I often think I play LT and search the ramp at the top^^
Listoric
As Starparty wrote, this map is still unfinished, but it's interesting imo. I will change details (doodads) as soon as possible (around 8. september) but after reading trough all posts again, i don't know how to change the map to make it fit the wishes. GMCS perhaps?

If i change the position of the bridges towards mapedge, the building space is extremely small. As it is now, you can easily build your base towards the expansion. I had some games here too, it's hard for T on startup, but if he can stop the harassment, T is in a really good position, maybe a too good. But on the other hand this would make up for starting problems. PvT is hard for T if you send your first zealots with probes to the enemy and micro a bit, but T can, even on close positions, get rid of the zealots with vultures and spidermines. Possible, but hard work ^^ well... some more comments? Ideas?
Listoric
Ok, after there are no new sugguestions, i think i will stop working on that map, and release a better version sometime, i already have something in mind that is more than an update, a new map.

If you still want to comment this map, feel free to do so :)
Mira
Your blog is very interesint
panschk
rofl

I feel the same sometime when seeking reply for my 2on2 league or something -_-
Listoric
Wee, random map feature ^^ *push*

Shall i ever update this map? :/
NoNamedOne
lol and u say to me i make imba maps :)
panschk

Shall i ever update this map? :/


Honestly, you newer maps are so much better, stick to them ;)
Nightmarjoo
random map
you should update it, it's nice and different
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