You can rate the map here. Chose a grade between 10 (best) and 0 (worst).
| flothefreak | | | Imho the same problem as on shakata.
Well, the lake on highground in each players main looks really cool. | | LGI | | | About this and (4)Shakta and the zerg...
I am starting to feel that its all sunks and defence in your brain :) . The zerg is a mass unit race that can made units prety fast. You all know that... Anyway for protoss rush on this map at the bottom two locations, yes! Its really easy for rush, but the problem for zerg will be if he try to get the high ground. It's all about the location spots when you start game for the strategy that you will pick. You can't play with only one style...
Like i was said at other comment i am zerg user, and i can stop protoss rush at the bottom of the map with hatchery on the 13 drone, pool on 12 or 13 drone, with 1 drone max loss. I will try to make a game for you to show you that this is possible, only needs skills and BRAIN! It's very important the way of build your structures in your base. Thats why i pick the way to play most of my games in my base, not to go to catch the clift even when i play 2v2 too!
| | flothefreak | | | | Are you kidding? What have you played when you say zerg since 1998? You will NEVER hold a 9/10 dbl-gate rush with 13hatch/12pool. N-E-V-E-R. And if you don't try to defend your ramp with chokehatch or anything, I'll just decide to attack your main, or your expasion T_T | | flothefreak | | | | ah yeah, and I definetly want to see this game that works like you described. | | LGI | | | So i've just made this game. It's 7 minutes. See the begining. Don't comment the other part of the game. My fucking anti-virus program kick me in the worst moment of the game...
Anyway the importnat thing is to see my begining. He even come with probes not only zilots! And i play just like i told you! | | Listoric | | | I don't think that he is "kidding". He looks like he is sure about what he is talking, and i'm going to watch that replay.
Still, i think that every race should have the possibility to go on whatever strategy they want from startup. in a bottom mu, here, z has to stay in his base, otherwise he is just dead. And a 1 strategy map isn't what i want to play imo.
The "problem" in starcraft mapmaking is, that you can play on every map you've created, even on -some- of the imbalanced maps in the "imba-on-purpose" competition here.
There is no question about that the distance between 12 - 3 on LT is the closest "good" distance, everything else is just to imbalanced. Think we agree on that matter. | | LGI | | | Btw i just want to say that i would play with other tactic at the begining, but i play like this just to show you, that anything is possible with good unit control and structure arrange.
| | Listoric | | | ok, i watched it. i play starcraft since the beginning as well, and there was nothing new to me, except that the protoss should have built a gas and the core earlier. and he could have attacked you earlier but he wasn't confident enough.
Anyway, the replay was just as i imagined. The P had no trouble to kill you while you had to defend with your drones more often and lost some of them, which is not only a loss of mining time in that period, it's a loss of minerals for the next time as well.
P was never in any kind of trouble. :/
I'm definetely aware of the fact that micro management wiht units (and buildings) is very very important. But especially in early game, protoss is very easy to micro management.
I play random now, and protoss it the easiest race for me atm. i don't have to care for my zealots that much, after they have a lot of health, which gives me a big amount of reaction time. As said, the Toss could have had goons already, kill your sunken easy and dance with your zerglings without any problem :/
Maybe you watch the game again and you see what we mean. Zerg almost HAS to play exact that strategy to have a chance to survive. That's not what mapmaking is about. It's about providing players a map that is balanced in almost every part so that THEY can decide what they want to play like, it's just partly the mapmakers choice.
Don't you think so? | | LGI | | | Look you don't get the point of the story.
"He could make bla-bla" "I could make bla-bla". OFCOURSE!
I just show this stratagy! Everybody could play at difrent styles and stratagies on the begining. He could even try to cannon me on the high ground etc... I also said that i would start difrent if we are at that locations and with that races. Do i have to show you 20 replayes with 20 stratagyes with PvZ... on that map and that locations? Ii will be dificult for me, but if i must i would try. I say dificult becouse we math on that locations from the 30th turn mayby... :( And i should lose the time of my friends too! I am sure every good player can handle every situation.
P.S. I lost only one drone! Just like i said in my first comment. I don't mining - ok, but let me ask you somthing. How often players have to use their workers to defend themselves? Often right? With every race right? At any map right? So whats the problem? It depends on your stratagy, unit control, structure arrangement and most importnat - YOUR BRAIN!
P.P.S. If i was the protoss i would made even 3 gates, and no gas ;). Becouse i told him to rush me hard and try to get me fast. What he should do? Think for the future? We talk about flothefreak comment here, not how to play and share all game styles and stratagyes.
Like i said every good player can do anything! Use Brain! Brain rulz :D | | flothefreak | | | | ok and mr brain is again which top5 european gamer because of his unblievable ability not to care about imbalances? | | LGI | | | Top gameres play tourneys with they can choice from a map pack and they play 2 out of 3. So in difrent maps they got advantage. It was like that on all WCG maps etc... Everybody say "This map is best for terran" "This map is best for Zerrg" "This map... bla-bla". So there you go. The top gamers have a map pack! On this map i can only think a way to make the 2 bottom locations a little far away, but this wont change much... The range is nearly like LT locations 12 and 3 o'clock.
And i want to tell you that the all story starts from your agression! You use words like "never" "no chance" bla-bla and why? Didn't i show that anything is possible? I even won't try to defend anymore my position, from your post until you start act like a normal person. It doesn't worth it... | | Starparty | | | You're all arguing about different things, and none of them really concerns the actual map. get a grip before labeling each other idiots and discuss improvements for the map in question.
LGI, everyone here is also very experienced gamers, just like you probably are. We might be right or wrong about some things, but if we make comments about the map it is justifyed in some way or another. | | Listoric | | | True Starparty.
We just sugguest to change something, because we -think- we know/thought about something you might haven't thought of. Maybe you even thought of something, and you see by the reactions that you might be wrong after other people made other experiences. And after you want your map played by many people normally, you should think about that they might be right.
But in the end it's your baby. Don't get angry just we don't agree on the same thing. Everyone is different ;) | | Listoric | | | Noone is always right, that's why we discuss on a map, more than saying "this map is imba, do something".
Back to the topic:
The red base is the only one where the mineral-line is on the mapedge, the blues one is near the mapedge, while the other two bases on bottom have the lake behind, and beside them. It's easier to attack the bottom positions with Mutas as the ones above, you could change that, after it's enough space and would affect the gameplay negatively if you change it.
Then, it's alwys good if you have a little space behind the mineral line, to support a drop there, also a small space between some minerals to make defending easier, and help the reaver to hit his targets easier.
You could vary terrain more often and change the shape of some positions to a more natural one, straight lines ook odd on a "natural" tileset (all except space and installation).
Doodads also help to make the map "feel right". It helps making the map unique, more beatiful, and more alive.
That's it for now :) | | LGI | | | | Ok then, what should i do? Nobody give me an option to think for. Except that this map is imba for newb zergs, and? Trash it out? If i must i will... | | LGI | | | | Sorry we post at the same time... | | Listoric | | | | np, happens often ^^ | | Listoric | | | Also the mineral placement is somehow odd. Not that it looks better if it's not that straight everywhere, it also helps to reduce the number of workers.
I especially think about the mineral-onlys near the mapcenter. they seem to be set "in a hurry" maybe set a CC next to it and try to set them closer, or place them into a curved shaped cliff. | | LGI | | | I fix the map, i made big changes but i can't edit! It says "make sure you tipe the correct ID of the map".
I try:
(4)Fatali
(4)Fatali(n)
(4)Fatali.scx
(4)Fatali(n).scx
Nothing work? What should i do? | | Listoric | | | the map ID - it`s the Identification Number for your map.
This map has the MapID 571 - just look at the first row :) | | flothefreak | | | | Hm, enter the ID instead of the map name? :< | | flothefreak | | | | listoric > me ^^ | | LGI | | | The map is fixed. Check it out now.
P.S. The admin can delete the replay, and most of the posts. They are not active now.
@Listoric, thank you very much for the tips, and advices, and for helping me to deal with this site :) | | flothefreak | | | >>Except that this map is imba for newb zergs, and?
This comment again. Dude.
You have no intention of taking any comment serious, right? | | LGI | | | It was you who start first to attack me... You can say most of your toughts like a normal person. Sorry about my language too, but i was affected by you...
Peace / ok? :D | | flothefreak | | | Well, I watched the replay now.
Firstly, toss was doing 9/11gate, and he even started building his first zealot after having started his SECOND gate. so this not a rush-bo.
Secondly, he was kinda dumb. when you slided all your drones to the gas, he just ran into them like a dog smelling meat. Instead of running into the stacked drones, he'd better been off with staying where he was, probes protecting the zealot and the hatches and creep colony as backshield. So he a) would have taken 5+ drones out before dying or b) would have been able to kick the sunken.
And I hope you watch the replay again and see what I mean. Winning on dumb _general_ mistakes of the enemy doesn't make a map balanced. | | Listoric | | | Wow, it looks way better than the last version.
The distances now seem better, so we don't have to argue about the old replay again.
Flo obviously saw the same mistakes in the protoss as i did, but as said, who cares now after you changed it ^^
Looks better now, really, i like it. | | Starparty | | | | i like it too, but the2 and 8 pos has little too large mains combined with the expo. balance that up positionally and it looks like a fast paced, but still entertaining map imo | | LGI | | | | Map is fixed, the 2 and 8 positions are redused and i do some entertaining :) | | SpoR[Mech] | | | | It looks good But fix the middle. The ice doesn't look very natural. | | LGI | | | | I fix a little bit, but i really can't do it more natural... The center will become very small if i try to make it look more natural... Just one ice. I hope this is not that big deal. | | LGI | | | | I fix the gas stations on every location and expand on the map, and i also add a clifts to the ice. | | LGI | | | | Well after i learn some tings in map making, and skilled myself :) , i've fix some problems on the map, i decorate it, and i change the center. | | LGI | | | Btw i want to say that i try everything to make the water look good, but it's imposible, because they are no doodads for high water, and also if i try to make it look good with "dirt walls" it also unaceptable, because, tanks can be droped there even if i make it as thin as possible.
:( | | LGI | | | Because i couldn't look the map with this empty water, i've made a version 2.0 of the map, that i really want to descus with you.
Do you like it more then the first version?
Do you think those new air expands should have gas on them?
Do you think that i could reduse some of the expands of the map with 1 block mineral so the resurs are fair, with the new air expands?
Do you like the forest that i've made :D?
Here is a picture of the map.
http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/2371/4fatali20n8ww.jpg | | LGI | | | | I've just notice that i cut greens gas station, but i will fix it after some comments, because i am sick of opening and editing 29038209318 times :) . I want to make everything in one hit :) | | Listoric | | | OIw... think i'Ve closed my window befre posting the comment...
well, the new version looks good, but it's a "fortress game" somehow. You'd have 2 expansions by defending your very own choke. That's just to much.
I post my sugguestion later, i have something in mind, but i'm not sure if it works out ingame, so i test it myself and post again later. | | flothefreak | | | remove the air expands, they don't do any good imo. As it is now, terran can easily take 2 expands and until that, there won't be any fights because terran doesn't need them. So terran will be satisfied with taking those for a while, while the other player tries to out-expand him. Then it will come to a major macro-battle, and for a 3-base-terran, the paths of the map aren't that disadvantaging. He'd be too strong then imho. and he can drop quite enough to damage enemy's eco...(tanks from below on the ice to the 2nd base, tanks for mainbase dropped at air-minonly, vult for minonly itself.
Just look at Luna, where it is (almost) the same: terran can get 3 bases very fast. On your map it is even MUCH easier to take them. But nevertheless, already on luna the center is made as much anti-terran as possible. So you should think about this. while 3 quite easy bases demand a antiterran center (luna), 3 very easy bases are combined with a terran-neutral (maybe favoring, dunno) center (this version of your map)
kk going to eat sth now :) | | Listoric | | | 
This is a VERY VERY rough and "big" change to your map as it is atm. I felt free to change it after i just had some ideas that came up as i looked at the map. Hope you don't mind.
I thought about the inbase expand, which is interesting, but i for my part don't like that (well just my presonal taste). So i sepereated it with lowground and 2 mineralfields with 16 mins each. That way you can take it quite early, but it's harder to defend, after there is a second ramp to it.
Next thing is, that i deleted the high water and moved the mainbases more into the corner, also changed the position of the "naturals" a bit. (this is only seen on the right half of the map really, just to show it to you). That way, the center is more open, especially in front of the choke. The mineral only lies between both ramps of the natural and the mainbase, so very good defendable.
Then i added "island" expands next to each mainbase, at the ice parts you already made. so you can attack it with rangeunits whenever you want to. Terran still can defend them quite easy or cover the path to it from the nearby natural (that could be fixed i think but all mains and nats have to be moved, and as said, i just changed something to show it to you). The best entrance to this part of the map is shown on the lower position. The mineral island is next to the mainbase down right, but the path to get there is next to the natural of the player in the left corner, which is good, so he can attack quite easy.
Well, just a rough thing, also a big change. It's almost a "new" map then.
What do you think LGI?
| | LGI | | | Now this is going to be a little confusing but, i just want to make something about this map...
About version 2.0. The only thing i can think of is making the air expands just like in Temple of Eden. With many doodads and a mineral, so no terran base can land there. But still terran will have advantage, because he can play for a fast drop with tanks behind main bases. About the center, i think it's anti terran enought. The only thing that i can make is make the ice tinner, so there can be droped fewer tanks then as it is now.
So i've made a version 3. It's made very fast, so don't say "this is ugly" etc, etc. For the top locations i can even use the ramps that flothefreak made. I will fill the empty space between mains and air expands with forest on every location. Resurs arrangement will be changed too. And the air expands will be made like in Temple of Eden - not reachable with flying terran base. So just look at the concept and tell me what you think. Here is a pic of version 3.0
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6480/4fatali30n3zi.jpg | | LGI | | | | Oh, god while i was making version 3, there is already version 4... God i can make my mind of the concept of this map!!! GOD! I will rest a little and see it again a little later, i just don't know what to do! | | LGI | | | Those 2 entreys, are change the things very much indeed. It's very hard to deside what really to do, and also this map won't be mine anymore :) . It's just a new map. So i am wondering if i make a final look for version 3, because somehow it's more for my taste then version 4. And you make version 4, but you can change name, center, and the other things you already change them, and make this as your map. So one LGI map, and one Listoric :) .
Ofcoure after i make final look for version 3 i will still wait for your comments about which version will be better. Version 1 or 3. Version 2 dies...
And then we will see the final result wich map is better :) . | | flothefreak | | | last version:
-isles are not the same largeness
-backexpos are not equally vulnerable to drop
-the concept does not look interesting any more...
I liked the idea of listoric most, maybe you should think about that once again.
| | Listoric | | | | Yeah, my version is totally different. I stumbled over it as i at first thought to change it to what you made, v3 then. Well, i won't "finish" v4 i made, after it's not my map and not my tileset, maybe i take this mixted concept to space, if i'm allowed to. We'll see. | | LGI | | | Hey!?!?!
I already said that this is made very fast! This is an unfinished look of version 3!!! I will change many things. Why i awayls get the fill that only because i am LGI, i am not listened well, and when an "old school" says something, it's read clearly, everytime acceptable etc, etc. What am i? Nothing?
Anyway i will make it my way, thx Listoric for the suggestion, but this is a new map that is just not mine, and even if it's better i can just jewlus, because the concept is not mine, etc, etc...
| | flothefreak | | | "It's made very fast, so don't say "this is ugly""
I read very specific. I didn't say anything about decoration/look. So YOU should start reading properly. | | LGI | | | Look, i i won't quote myself for the rest of what i said. I start to point the things that i will fix, i can't point everything! And i say "this is ugly etc, etc, etc". Etc, etc... you know what this means. In this case etc means don't speak about... what you already point. And the final of my quote was "So just look at the concept and tell me what you think." I was needing comments about the concept, not about my mistakes.
Anyway lets just forget this, i will leave (4)Fatali as it is.
Right now some of this versions give me an idea of making two more maps :) . Now i am working on one of them. And leter i will show it to you, if am finished... | | Starparty | | | | i like this map though,. | | RSCup.Spitfire[7x] | | | | Eeehm, 9 pool is a killer? Or my eyes suck? | | LGI | | | Update:
1) Add High Grounds behind all main minerals with a ramp, so terran would be a little more effective on this map.
2) Re-arrange minerals everywhere!
3) Decorate the map a bit.
4) Fix all straight lines, they were ugly.
5) Fix a little mistake...
Any suggestions? | | flothefreak | | | ehm, 2 gasbases in the main favor terran enough, why add a strange cliff?
it just makes the mainbases small again which is not good | | LGI | | | Well there was water anyway, so i didn't make them smaller :). Now about the 2 gas stations in main i really want to talk about. I was wondering if it's good to move the gas infront of the ramp, and make the expand min only. So here is what is my mind.
The map got short distance overall, so it will be a little agressive, espacially in 2v2. So this is one of the reasons i put the gas up at the main, because it will be very hard to defend in front of the ramp espacially if a 1v1 MU PvZ at horizontal locations (zerg goes FE). The other reason to keep the gas there is that zerg will need 3 hatchs to defend it properly. About the terran ownage with 2 gas at start i was thinking in the very beging in making this map and i tought that there is a lot of space in main to drop army, and terran can't cover all, and attack at the same time. Still i am not sure about this... Haven't test this kind of MU in game.
So what do you think is it better gas infront of the ramp, or i should keep it, as it is? | | flothefreak | | | | put into GMCS where you wanna have it, "in front of ramp" is not really exact | | LGI | | | | I mean at the min only expand. | | LGI | | | | Any comments? Should i tuch the gas? | | flothefreak | | | terran is very strong actually, because he gets 2nd gas early (wall-in) and 3rd base quite easy (tanks on the clif protecting the minonly). Zerg on the other hand would be disfavored by the missing gas and the problem of no possible gas-FE, but needed 3hatch-build. ZvT in 1on1 seems very uneven then.
So it's kind of two-sided. it would balance some mu's some more, while making others hard.
but I think the imbalances with the gas in main are stronger:
So I'd say, go for minonly in base and gas on the "natural" ground expo. However, this is only my opinion, which you can see at chaos_factor: quite easy minonly, hard gas-fe for zerg. I just think that this is more balanced with safe minonly but vulnerable gas natural, instead of the other way round.
In addition, as it is a 2on2 map, I don't think TvZ should be the MU to focus on. And to prevent bunkering in 2on2, you'll need the gas in front much more. | | flothefreak | | | sry bout late comment btw
must have overlooked it | | LGI | | | | Well i will test it a little how terran will be on this map, because moving the gas on the low ground will be very hard to balance at all positions, the expo placement, espacyali at 4 o'clock. I can't make only 2 hatch with z on FE... Other locations i can move it closer to the ramp but there i don't know how to fix this... Mayby if i make wider ramps to the mains? | | panschk | | | In the replays I have seen the map looked like it was a pretty fun, straightforward map.
The "neutral" expansions are not really that neutral though. green and blue would probably take it, as their mineral only is closer. So move it a bit towards the other player:) | | LGI | | | | What? Where? Which expand? | | panschk | | | | the centre expansions are not really neutral, and they should be (for 2 players each of course) azalea syndrome :O | | LGI | | | | Man i think the distance is fine, really! If not, hit me with a rock... |
| Replays
- - LGI vs  FacHaker(1on1, 1.13)
-- LGI, GAD_C4 vs Chieftain, Valdemorg(2on2, 1.13)
--LGI, Cheiftain vs Possessed, Tiwsta_pro(2on2, 1.13)
--LGI, Chieftain vs Possessed, Tiwsta_pro(2on2, 1.13)
Upload replay for this map |
