i already mentioned it shortly in the motw-thread. the recent motws and mapthreads showed me clearly i need to do that.
this page is lacking SPs, LGIs, listorics, trccs and also travins.
i have no problem with illusion becoming no motw - but battlegrounds is clearly not motw-level as to former times. i notice this because when i write bw.de newsposts, it becomes harder and harder to conclude a positive feedback and to cover the striking problems in soft words.
i dont want to waste my time here anymore, with too many people lacking real experience. telling - despite of ovbious flaws - that a map "is very good" doesnt help anyone. i dont say everyone is newb. i only say the real "old school" experience is lacking, which is also mirrored in the recent motws.
and when i see which group of users is mainly deciding MOTWs now, this is no surprise.
good bye, this is no place anymore to be here. the motivation and the fun have vanished...sadly. i just cant see how to move on under this circumstances, with people overestimating their judgement/skills/experience.
your overdramatizing these decisions. (2)Battle Grounds and (4)Beloved Land are only 2 weeks worth of MOTWs and it shouldnt blown out of proportion to leave the site..
As for (2)Battle Grounds, What else needs to be tested for it to have a clean and crisp win? I dont understand how much more experience u have either, i guess some of us arent good enough to ur standards to make a decision worthy of ever being close to MOTW..
and how much testing on (2)Battle Grounds and (4)Beloved Land have you done? To what I know, it is none.. so why post about its flaws, when i can pick out many ppl that accept, and like these maps? modified by NastyMarine
"This unusual map contains many daring elements, which the Gameplay surely distinguishes from other maps. Beside that extremely close horizontal positions, which make the EarlyGame very aggressive, will play the neutral expansions a large role particularly on the longer distances. These are put on in very unusual way around a kind oversize Highground Doughnut. Remarkable it is here that only the NaturalExpansion is really safe - outside of the protecting Main cousin there are no simple expansions. Despite a probably very risky map structure the map has nevertheless some potential for interesting plays. Thus it, even if some doubts became loud, brings map by NastyMarine the MotW title to the American."
thanks for that flo. appreciate it :)
never really checked bw.de
You're leaving just because of what maps become MotWs?
Attitudes like this is what destroys websites/communities. I don't care if the maps that become MotW aren't liked by everyone. This is a community in which we help each other make better maps. It's also a place to hang out with friends of similar interests too. The MotW isn't what this site is all about.
I'll be damned to see this site fall because of people who leave this site because of their own selfish reasons.
good map makers don't necessarily make good judges of which maps are best for broodwar players to play.
flo, "SPs, LGIs, listorics, trccs" aren't necessarily going to choose the right MOTW's.
travin is 3x better than all of them as far as playing broodwar goes, and travin is an average or slightly below average broodwar player. attack me if you want, but the point remains--you have to know broodwar best to judge maps. not "map making.."
i don't know where flo gets off thinking he's in an elite class of map judgery. just because he has made so many maps that follow the same 2-3 formulas? because he spent so much time making sure all the i's were dotted and t's were crossed? sorry but until we get good broodwar players in here judging each map on its play merits, we have no way of telling which map makers are really doing it well. all i know is that none of flo's maps have had any success outside of this site. isn't the point of making maps to get maps out there in the world? just being voted among map makers is nothing.
have you looked at the PGT Map Making Forum? Our mappers post there, and honestly, the gamers who post there don't know ANYTHING. All they'll say is either "imba" or "good map" with no reasons backing them up. That's a bunch of retards who think they know, sorry.
Did you see how many people liked Chameleon when the poll came out? That's just more proof that gamers really don't know about maps, they just play them.
EDIT: Here, I found a perfect example. click.
No offense to 20nation, he's my buddy, but this isn't a fantastic map, and look at the comments. The only thing they've suggested is rocky ground to prevent pushes and replacing bridges because of the AI mess ups. There's not even one mention of the fact that Z can't defend his main from his natural, along with other things on the map.
And flo, don't leave, you're the last of the classic old school mappers here. I've been here, but I'm not like you or SP or Listoric or LGI. I agree this may be a bit strange, but with the amount of newer mappers here, what can you expect? They weren't here for the early days of all the old school mappers. modified by epidiOn
I will skip the topic comment, but i just want to point that many of the MotW candidates and some of the MotW winners are really not on the MotW level thats why i stopped posting comments in the MotW newsposts. There is nothing wrong to chose a bad map once, twice or more, but the main problem was that most of the mappers agreed for a map to become a MotW. To become a MotW you need votes, and when i saw that the votes are for a map that is not on a MotW level it was making me sad. So i finally start thinking that the community level of quality is going down. If i get back in the time i see how we were close to the mapdori level, but now we are far behind and the fact that we've become so well known is that the nomber of mappers get higher, the people whith rights on other sites are making news about maps, contest more often and the main fact that BWMN is so famus is that it become very populer for the BW community to make showmatches on new maps. And the comunity liked that, the gosu players also liked that. Some of the teams and clans also liked that! And i think that this won't stop in the near future, but when the BW comunity start to understand more about the maps and we keep this level in BWMN they will just return to their old words "KOREA > ALL" .
Sorry for those words. And don't get me wrong some of the mappers are rally improving here. Arden, NastyMarine and MilleniumArmy are really showing some great skills that are passing mine and other good map makers. Mappers like epidiOn, Valkyrion, Artanis are also going prety well. But still most of you don't have the right eye for some of the details on a map, IMHO. At least this is my view from the time when i was more active here. Atm i really don't have time to see map comments. Sometimes just come here to see the forum and skip the other part of the site, because i know that if i start whaching pics i will post, and etc, etc, etc and i will lose the little time that i have for eating, bath and things like this...
Flo, if you feel that this site is losing it's old school attention to balance and appeal, then it is your responsibility as an old school mapper to attempt to pick the site back up. There was a huge wave of many new mappers recently and they all have personal opinions to offer, but they are not always right, including me. I'm not asking you to "teach us oh great one", I'm just suggesting that you pay attention to the imbas and flaws in maps, and Back_Them_Up with replays or even in-dept theorycrafting.
Let us make our own mistakes, if we realize that two weeks in a row, we have made a MOTW error, we will back up and say "Let's make sure this never happens again". IF you pull a hissy fit and fight against a map all the way, then people will just vote for the map out of spite (which is what happened with Battegrounds) and nobody will ever learn. If you stay here with us, then we can all work together to TEST <== (yes, you heard me right) all or many of the new maps that appear. Only then will we have a serioud discussion about balance and structure.
I really don't know what I should say to this topic.On BWMN are 2groups:The experienced and the new mappers.Quite some experienced mappers left this site and if more leave this site will be overran by crappy maps and it will lose all achievements.
The biggest problem of BWMN is,that maps with potential get ignored and the mapper loses the fun at maping because nobody comments his maps.I don't think we need masses of good mappers but we need some of them.Else the quality will fall even more.
the best way to fix the MotW problem is by making a Team,that decides the winner.This team should consist of good,experienced and active mappers,that play Starcraft everyday.
"Back_Them_Up with replays or even in-dept theorycrafting."
This is wat many of us fail to do on this site and even worst is that no1 even watches the reps due to time or jus lack of will to do so..
"the best way to fix the MotW problem is by making a Team,that decides the winner.This team should consist of good,experienced and active mappers,that play Starcraft everyday."
yes! though we need to prove not only worthiness of these judges but these ppl must actively find flaws and back-up theorycrafting with reps... even abuse map flaws like cliffs, backdoors.. and with that sed we shuld start considering who can be there to judge these maps..
oldschool mappers that are willing to accept new school, newschool who will trust oldschool, and gamers whom can consistently show reps in MOTW canidates..
This team will only do good if these ppl are active in the community and can promote our maps on other sites etc
I should have said this more clearly in my other post. What I meant is that most gamers are TERRIBLE judges at a map's qualities. Everyone who posts in the PGT map threads are gamers, but all of their advice is crap. So you can't just keep saying over and over "you BWM guys suck at judging maps, get some real gamers in here to do it" because the only words that the "real gamers" understand are "imba" or "good map".
many good gamers only know that the unramped cliff is imba, because one found it out once that this is a striking imbalance
i think that these gamers could only play the standard and can not change to alternative tactics, many players are just macrogamers and are too lazy to find out something new
thats why i am not keen on dentists idea of judging a map by a gosugamer
for example, everyone knows the former MoTSv incident, the gamers voted for the memory cell and i think many of them voted for it, because it was the most simiar to luna,rpoint etc. of the chosen three...
ok, so, i just wrote a hundreds of lines long comment, but i just deleted it after i'm not in the mood to complete it. I just wrote to much like i always do.
Anyway, don't go flo, just calm down. I know exactly how you feel, but the newest maps aren't total bullshit, they are "experimental" somehow, unfinished in my eyes and that's why they don't feel that motw-ish as other motws.
The way we "vote" Motw was better back then also. We discussed a map, with pros and cons, and made the best map that week to motw. Now everyone just throws a name into the round, choosing out of the given, not thinking about what to improve, not thinking about the flaws that are in these maps.
It seems like the "new generation" doesn't help each other that much, maybe because they lack of some "old school" mappers to guide them.
tbh, i'd really like to be here more often, guide the new mapmakers, help out more often, do more then just center the motw picture or add "2006.23" in the maps admin board, but i don't have much time for SCBW anymore. I played SCBW since release, i'm still playing some games every now and then. With ~120 apm and 8 years of experience i'm just a noob-midskilled player. Like a little 12 year old boy with two "left feet" who knows everything about soccer. Maybe he can'T play it that good, still he knows everything because he is a freaking stupid fanboy. I joined BWMN when my gaming time was over long ago, still i know every detail of this game. For me, discussing with a mapper whose maps obviously are way under motw standard is totally going on my nerves nowadays. As said, it's notthat i don't want to help or something like that, sometimes it's just like discussing with a bird who says "yeah, but fire is warm, so i want to fly through fire". Yes it's warm, yes you could fly in it, yes it even looks better than thin air, still it's a dumb idea.
Anyway, i still keep on visiting this page, comment on every map i feel like commenting to it, check if the motws are written correct and help in the motw decision process, still i think that we somehow missed the right time to step up a little higher.
i really hate to say this and to spark a fight .. cuz i like trcc's map.. but havent u forgot ppl like Arden and even me? sure the maps that i have had great attention for have been less than what ppl hoped but everyone has forgot that Beloved land isnt bad at all.. im tired of hearing that 'these' maps nowadays arent as good or arent discussed right.. its bs.. we all dictate how the motw goes.. instead we all jus vote and then ask questions which is stupid.. ill comment on this more later but the motws do need more care and attention for judging but the quality etc is still therew