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Last update for (4)Raptor : 2006, 07, 12 09:05
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
1253 (4)Raptor 128*128JK)Valkyrion3.4final

The map has been rated 58 times and got a total of 195 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


JK)Valkyrion
min block near the main ramps are of 24
LGI-
You give me a great idea, i will copy you some day when i have time for another map...

About the map. I think you could do better then this. Right now it's very hard for terrans. The first expand is too open and hard to defend.
JK)Valkyrion
1 expo = natural?
flothefreak
actually, i think this map is good for terran if playing a pushing-style. the bridges help alot to secure expos.

I like this one. it is fresh and original, and most important: it is far away from what you normally make considering mapstructure. if you manage to balance all this (needs testing imo to see if and what kind of imbalances can be found. theorycraft is useless here), then it will be as great as omega.

and i want to stress that it doesn't seem to be a random-remaked map, but planned as it is. this counts a lot and shows that you got some skill on your own without the help of others. and that's how to improve.

the center looks really beautiful, nice deco job here. but i think for gameplay, those tiny ramp-cliffs are _maybe_ a bit annoying. but still, this is only _possible_, so don't touch it until you get feedback from gamers in that concern.

also pay some more attention to positonal balancing. quite good overall, but there are tiny "mistakes". not really gamedeciding, but (dis)favoring some starting pos slightly. examples: 8 o'clock path BELOW the ramp leading to the natural is very tight. some naturals seem to cover the "backdoor" of the bridge some more than others, you'd have to test it ingame, though, because this is hard to say from the pic (creep doesn't reach in every direction with the same distance).

overall a very nice job. fresh idea, well executed, uncommon thoughts, nice.
JK)Valkyrion
y i know the tight path from the ramp tu the natural in 8 position, but is hard to fix i try something, however are ok the big ramp at the main?
flothefreak
what are wall-in possibilities?
if you can wall them quite basically (BSS at maximum), it should be a great way to harass in PvT, i like it. it makes the terran FE harder, which imo destroys the dynamic of the gameplay (the terran FE in pvt itself).

concerning the ramp:
it is a jungle map, so just use the upwards ramps with the bridgetiles. i haven't done this before, but i am experienced with tiles, so if you don't succeed, i may be able to do it.
AiurZ
one day some disillusioned protoss player is going to murder half of you.
flothefreak
i am protoss. but being a bit more precise will maybe help to get at least a tiny little small clue of what you're talking about.
JK)Valkyrion
with mineral BSS, without BSSS, what is FE?
flothefreak
then keep minerals.
FE=fast expand. did you ever play BW? :o
AiurZ
so you have ramps the size of texas, and an even larger choke to defend. of course, these wide ramps provide you no solace in pvt because the terran can very easily wall it off normally.

so now that you have no ramp to fall back on, 2gate pressure is not going to be very efficient. you could try 1gate builds, but youll still be behind, and risk being victim to any sort of mass t1 attack.

you cant expand, because zerglings will easily rape your exposed rectum.

this map would have worse pvz than chameleon. tight chokes and a tight center will rape a protoss pvt.

besides that, positionally the 12 and 3 mineral onlys are much more vulnerable than the 9 and 6 due to the ramps facing inwards at 12 and 3 and outwards at 9 and 6.
flothefreak
in pvt having 3-4 goons ON the ramp instead of 1, maximum 2 is definetly good for P goon rush. P expo isn't that safe, true. but there are many maps where the nat isn't only divided in two entrances, but even very open. still, PvZ needs balancing. the center being quite tight could also become a problem, but it is not as horrible as aiurz think.

the ramps around the minonly are all rotated in a symmetric way, no problem here.
Nasty
o_0 whoa .. so much thought auirz :).. you jus raped this map and then killed its hopes :/... i'd rather see reps than so much theorizing. please prove these points in reps

Suggestions:
the middle.. get rid of the ramps up the temple walls.. they are just in the way. I know they are for hiding scouts or attacking an enemy, but they gotta go.

at 7, you need to widen the entrance to the ramp. its too narrow.. t can turtle like a mother fucker! move the ramp over alittle bit.

other than that the map looks nice.. i kno the criticism is alot but your better off making these changes.
JK)Valkyrion
y flo i play bw :d but i don't ever use Fe, however i can move at right, but only a little, the main ramp of red start position
JK)Valkyrion
sry but the ramp in the middle i think is a fresh idea, i want first see them in the game and then decide if erased them or no...
king of 8 plr maps
some mistakes on naturals at bottom, some bases gas sticking out or blocking path, forget middle for now those naturals you need fix minerals and gas to make it more playble.

By the way those 2 bottom bases you need fix it the paths too narrow exiting their base.


modified by king of 8 plr maps
epidiOn
What about early game PvZ? Can you imagine trying to block those ramps with zeals?

Valk, I think if you remove the two middle temple/ramps and keep the top and bottom ones it would be okay.

Over all, I think it looks really nice.
king of 8 plr maps
check pic i fixed gas problem, its gotta be something like this for map to play good look at bottom gases now they are out way now, and paths are similar to top bases so its more balanced.

Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us
modified by king of 8 plr maps
lnept
staredit = :(
JK)Valkyrion
king with your version your disfavor a Teal natural expo for zerg ,in fact they can't stop a rush of rine and medic that they go direct to the ramp

epidion, in early game in pvz, u can rescrict this ramp with pilon attached to the minerals that I put deliberately
JK)Valkyrion
i have fix the path narrow for red position, for teal i think is ok, is same witch the blue and purple rposition of ramps
sp
nice work man
JK)Valkyrion
the only problem for me ,maybe is the center too tight but i want see it in game before to make a fix
yenku
In pvz you dont need to block ramp with zeals, it just makes it easier. I really dont see a problem with this matchup than any other map.

In pvt it makes it easier for toss, and finally its a map that is easier than LT, im sick of maps with tight, nested nats with lots of protection. I think its balanced pvt
king of 8 plr maps
thats better then before, that suggestion was only a guide, wasnt ment to you follow exactly, i just did it quickly.

but now you fixed that problem with gas sticking out, better path now

modified by king of 8 plr maps
flothefreak
still check pathing from chokes through the nats. that'd be nasty. and yenku: having lings in your base usually means _a lot_ of trouble when playing against a decent player. there is a reason why none likes this :S
JK)Valkyrion
however if the ramps cause problem i can erase them and replaces with normal ramps, same for the center i can erase the ramps and remake the temple-wall for anti-drop, but before i want see this things in game.
flothefreak
keep the ramps if possible. mayb try around with a neutral (non-repairable) building that creates a new chokepoint a bit behind the large ramp. so P can block with zealots there, while terran is probably safer with the standard wall-in.
yenku
yea, i was thinking the same thing.
Well i still say if its a decent protoss player he can deal with it no problem.
JK)Valkyrion
i can put in the ramps a mineral, is possible with scmdraft?
JK)Valkyrion
-added mineral behing the each ramps, to restrict the ramps
flothefreak
what is the point of large ramps then?
JK)Valkyrion
i not understand what do you speak about
JK)Valkyrion
ah maybe i have understand, with this mineral-wall, those large ramps are totally useless...
the dentist
maybe lol
AiurZ
"Well i still say if its a decent protoss player he can deal with it no problem."

change this to read "if its against an incompetent zerg"
JK)Valkyrion
ok stop with this problem i delete those ramps :d
the dentist
what you could do is add a neutral building to make it easier for toss to hold beneath the ramp instead, maybe.
JK)Valkyrion
with scmdraft?
the dentist
i dont know how they do it, but a lot of people do. there must be a tutorial or something
the dentist
is this it? http://www.panschk.de/mappage/newsscript/viewarticle.php?newsid=20
JK)Valkyrion
picture not show a neutral building t.t
JK)Valkyrion
stop i'm annoying with those big ramp, i have erased them definitive
JK)Valkyrion
i have changed the center, i think that now is better
flothefreak
center still looks cute. unfortunately, now there is only few innovation left...

a nice map with a little touch of creativity (expo layout) now. i like it, though i am not overwhelmed. very good quality, though
JK)Valkyrion
y ,now the map is less fresh, however if anyone can hekp me with the position of neutral unit in the ramps i can replace them...but the center i think is better now, there are less path narrow.
NastyMarine
dont touch this map anymore.. its as good as its gonna get without changing the whole concept or the design in the map. it looks good good job
maximumdan
ya great job, this has really improved, i'll play it
JK)Valkyrion
flo can u make for me the neutral bulding in the ramp?, i give u the version with the big ramps, always that you want :D
flothefreak
i takes about 15secs to do so, just go ahead. i still don't know what's so difficult in just doing what the corresponding article says
ScoutWBF
Please do me a favor and place that ramps in the middle again.Dude you made an awesome different map and then you go mainstream again and delete the ramps.People are asking for new maps with new concepts and not the concept they already know from maps like LT,R-point or other newer Korean maps.
JK)Valkyrion
i have make this neutral building but they not show in the picture...
ScoutWBF
you made them with "unit sprites" and for player 12?
JK)Valkyrion
y
ScoutWBF
retry the picture.If you made it with scmdraft2 of course^^
JK)Valkyrion
y with scmdraft2, i have re-try the picture but there is the same problem....
ScoutWBF
re-place the buildings,maybe that will help
JK)Valkyrion
done but nothing tt
ScoutWBF
Alright I will check that shit XD

I can see them on my image Oo
modified by ScoutWBF
JK)Valkyrion
Therefore that I should do?
ScoutWBF
try to select all the Norad II's and go into settings and change the field where the players are to "neutral".They were empty when I looked for it.
JK)Valkyrion
setting is in "scenario"?
ScoutWBF
uhh just right click when you selected the norads
JK)Valkyrion
ah ok, i have select "properties" and in "player owner" i have choose neutral, instead for the bit?
flothefreak
nothing with right click.
set p12 in the upper taskbar, place the sprite and be happy.
flothefreak
and don't edit the map in SE afterwards
JK)Valkyrion
nothing, i have set p 12, select normal grid, go to sprites->unit sprites(i have choose Norad II) and then place them in the map, but they not show in the picture, i don't understand why, i have done all correct, and naturally i haven't open SE afterwards
flothefreak
don't tell me now that you make your pictures with scm2jpg but wondering they dont appear ON THE PIC OF SCM2JPG.
if it is like this, and if you didn't even make one test ingame vs cpu so you'd see if the buildings were there...then die please.
JK)Valkyrion
y the building there are in the game only they not show in the picture, so if scmtojpg is not ok what is ok for show this building?
flothefreak
scmdraft2.
scm2jpg doesn't show any sprites or minblocks with value 0.
JK)Valkyrion
i know but now, for show this building in the picture, what i do?
flothefreak
scmdraft2.
JK)Valkyrion
w8, i speak about to show them in this site.
flothefreak
scmdraft2.
JK)Valkyrion
is possible to make a picture with scmdraft2?
epidiOn
Yes, go to file and select 'Save Image'
king of 8 plr maps
use regular buildings and add it on top of the sprites buildings but do not save and goto save image, then youl see the buildings in picture.
Use Scmdraft2 to do it.

Damn you cant place narad on ramp to take a picture, why dont you use regular size ramp then everybody be happy.

There is one way you can add the picture to ramp just use photoshop and copy narad then past it as a layer to the picture. I did that with Kings Reign.

modified by king of 8 plr maps
the dentist
basic, basic issues here:

TvP! mid is too terran.

ZvP! nat is too hard on toss.

ZvP! choke is too hard on toss.

TvZ? zerg needs too many sunkens for nat? unsure.
JK)Valkyrion
ok replace with normal ramps

for dentist:

1)there are more way to flank the enymy unit, so no problem

2)why to hard? is = to rush hour two entrance

3)i have replace with normal ramps so olso here no problem

4)need same sunken like on rush hour.

JK)Valkyrion
added obs version
flothefreak
normal ramps screw the map imo. as i already said, if you can balance it with those ramps, keep them because it would be way better then. so why don't you even try??

point 2-4 have some true aspects. but i guess you could work on that.
JK)Valkyrion
i have done the image but is too big for upload it in database. what are point 2-4?
flothefreak
those points of dentist.
you have to resize the picture of scmdraft. it is 4096² with 16MB.

get irfanview and resize it to 768² and save it as jpg.

how old are you?
JK)Valkyrion
21 age, never do this...
JK)Valkyrion
point 4 are already ok, for point 2 just test it in the game before to judje . however i dunno cuz i don't play pvz...
JK)Valkyrion
oh finally, i have resolve the problem :D
the dentist
mid is def too terran still. many narrow points, an army can only be attacked in a straight line, terran is invincible in that situation. so they can move more easily than on lotem... lose less units, kill more. they can push on the sides...

the nat is obviously too open, costs a lot for P to expo, z>p...

ramps look fixed now

zerg DOES need too many sunkens to take nat. and the tightness helps add to this, t>z advantage.

t>z, z>p.
JK)Valkyrion
no man u are i n error, in tvz, z need the same sunken on rush hour, so no problem for me, t not > z in this map, in zvp p can close the nat with 1 pilon , 1 forge and 1 cannon so no problem imo. th center i think is ok is not too narrow perhaps in tvp, bu however there are more way to flank, for example: if t move its unit in the middle u can attack it's main.
Valkyrion
a little fix in red's nat and teal's nat , i'm also undecided for the 2 exp, maybe there are much gas, what do you think about 2500 value of gas in 2 exp?
modified by Valkyrion
the dentist
without leaving their ramp open? sorry but it's obviously harder than many maps, ive seen ppl bitch about that in many maps.
Valkyrion
i have talk about the gas not the ramps, the ramps are ok...
the dentist
english you?
Valkyrion
no me italian

so the idea to put 2500 in the 2 gas expo is ok?
modified by Valkyrion
Valkyrion
plz anyone can answer?
NastyMarine
well it definently cant hurt. I'd say yes. it will help because of the fact that there are 4 gas expos

do it
Valkyrion
ok tnx. sry for my english t.t

fix expos gas:
each second gas expo have now 2500 value, i think is better for balance tvz and pvz
modified by Valkyrion
yenku
i like the map alot, great job.
zvp looks rough on p. zerg gets alot of gas. have you considered removing gas at the nat?
Valkyrion
i have already removed 2500 value in each 2°gas expos, i think is more balanced now.
LaO-Artanis
I think those temple ramps are a bit too pro-bottom and against the top, considering they're all pointing downwards. If you can use inverted ramps on this to make the top 2 point upwards instead of downwards, you'd have better balance.
Valkyrion
y, but is an irrilevant problem imo.
yenku
ah, but it isnt, bottom can defend/push easier when heading up.
Valkyrion
y but, the principal battles in this map are concentrated not in the middle, but in the 4 area with the bridges...i repeat: for me the center is ok, the only problem that i can see, are the narrow paths in the middle.
Valkyrion
i have made more small each nat, tell me if now is ok or no
flothefreak
the real problem is that the bridge (as path) is leading right between the natural expansion and the choke - this is what often kills ZvT balance and at least makes PvZ much harder. you have to move the bridges to a spot where it leads more to the front of the expansion, not behind it. hard to explain, just play a few ZvTs against a decent terran and you get what we mean.
Valkyrion
no is ok, i have understand :D, ok i try to make this fix, however some people think that the center is too tight. what do you think about the middle?

ok i have made one bridge(9h): tell me if i have understand or no.(does not mind to the'' absence of the norad, I will put them in a second moment)
modified by Valkyrion
Valkyrion
ok all bridges were done
flothefreak
yeah, better. still quite hard (harder than usual) but better than before. if you make a little cut (water or similar) between the edge of the bridge and the ramp it will be ok i guess.

i show you what i mean, red lines are "cutting things" like walls, doodads, water, whatever. you will see which one works.
Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us
Valkyrion
ok i have try to done also this, see the picture.
flothefreak
ah, very nice. i am glad you finally decided to improve the map. i will now have a look on the pos. balance of the natural, though ;D
so you can balance it perfectly if there's a flaw.

as i though, right bottom natural (better say: the bridge) isn't yet balanced. just place a hatchery at every natural and see the creep. and i STRONGLY recommend to move the natural a bit further into the main (so, cut some space behind the minerals, around 2-3 tiles only (tiles, not isometric cursor square!) and push the mineralline slightly further into this "cavern". atr the moiment, the natural building and ecoline will cause trouble when trying to pass with your army.
on bottom left natural, enlarge the path coming from right, with about 1-2 tiles.
modified by flothefreak
Valkyrion
i'm also very happy that this map is returned in track :D, but now there is another problem, some people think that this center is too narrow, but i'm not total agree with this, do u think u about this?
flothefreak
well, on the picture, it seems so. hard to say if it is too tight. but remember this: there are quite open naturals and 2nd exps, and there are also many seperated ways in the center to avoid enemy's army. AND there are no cliffs as well. a slightly tight center helps imo balance in TvP and PvZ. so i would keep it that way if there is no trouble ingame.
the only real issue that could happen imo is a slight imbalance in ZvT.

i think the center is fine, maybe a bit tight, but not imbalancing any MU seriously if youn take the whole map into consideration.
flothefreak
omg so bad english today...forgive me, i'm kinda tired^^
Valkyrion
ok now the bottom right should be better, why u think that there be able to be an unbalanced in zvt?( the gas of each 2 expos have value of 2500)
flothefreak
this was referring to a tight center. the natural is not "easy" to take as FE for zerg and an additional tight center _could_ THEN possibly create imbalance in ZvT. for any other matchup, i don't see problems.
Valkyrion
y maybe.


  
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