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Last update for (4)Tawaret : 2008, 03, 05 06:22
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
1523 (4)Tawaret 128*128spinesheath0.3beta

The map has been rated 60 times and got a total of 18 points
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Comments:   GMCS (8 elements)


Antares
ZvT could be problematic here, because there is not big distance difference between the two entrances

but ive just seen its beta :)
modified by Antares
spinesheath
I noticed that there were few Twilight maps recently, so I chose twilight as tileset ;)
Well, actually those ramps are quite well to do in twilight and some other reasons let me to this choice but who cares^^

I used a new concept for it, with the gas nat being cliffable, but you can take your minonly and thus secure that cliff.
I am not _that_ happy to have 2 entrances, so I put a 24-mins wall to tighten one of them in early game.

I don't know how well the concept will turn out as it is, but there are plenty ways of tweaking the map such as closing one entrance, swithcing gas positions, and lots of stuff.

The middle is way too plain and open as it is, I finished the most basic layout for now, and even that took me quite some time...

So, what do you think about it?
spinesheath
Yep, I also noticed that terran will be quite strong in tvz as it is.
It seems to me like t>z>p>t, but as I said, I can change some little things that affect the structure of the map a LOT.
5pool
look's quite promissing to me. although im wondering, what will you do with the small connection between min only and main? it might be an idea to block it with some 32 minblocks?
5pool
btw, if you need a zerg tester :D i'd be glad to help out
spinesheath
you can always play some games on it and add the replays ;) But I am Zerg myself, so there is no use in testing together^^

I don't want to block that path because:
a) it kills pathfinding
b) it's somewhat the natural expansion
SynDrome
exelent concept, add some decoration and the map will rock !
spinesheath
You might have noticed the decoration concept - while the the "arms" of the high_terrain are bent to the left, the "arms" of the crushed_rock are bent to the right. The ramps are alltogether arranged on the crushed rock. (actually I worked out the terrain and chokes at first and then noticed that I can set up this anti-whatever-tell-me-some-english-word...

Also, if you look closer at the right "arm" of the crushed rock, you will notice that it's shape is a lot smoother than the others'. This is about how it will look like once I am done with it. But it takes quite long to do so, so I wanted to gather some comments first...

I will try to work in a light-shadow concept as well. Let's see if I can find a good way to do so. twilight offers this so nicely :)
Fry
A other posible name for this one could be Cabaret(of older elements).The midlle star like in R-Point,the entrances to the main over the expo whitout gas,like in flo's Illusion.Sad,sad.

You have some problems to understand what is a new map.When you call a map so she really must be NEW,not just some older elements merged into a other tileset.All your concern seems to be not to disturb some stoopid old runes(standards in map making).You are so afraid to make a posible mistake.But there will be your own mistakes and maybe you can learn from them step by step.

I say this before to some other dude on this forum and now I say it to you:why somebody should play this map?

Before you creat a map try to find a answer,a good reason for this question.And a posible answer could be, because it's a new challange.
Can you really say this when you look to your map?Can you tell me what is here the NEW challange?For me it's the same old could tee.

But of course you will find enough average people
who need average maps.If this is consolation enough for you,well...(do it again)
5pool
lol, fry @ having his period ><

imo the map is quite original. You don't have to make a map 100% original. IF a map is only playable in a diffirent way then the one it looks like, it is original enough. In the end, all maps will start to look alike anyway.

besides that, your comments are a bit too early. This is the beta stage of a map, its empty, and only the big out-line has been decided on. Give it some time to develop, and you'll see it'll become a great map.

and tbh, you sound pretty average to me, with you average moaning comment ;)
Nightmarjoo
t>z only in early game because of the no gas chokeless nat, later on z>t because of huge open area. I don't like those mineral walls, I'd rather they were complete; and SW and NE have a much nicer looking gap to fill in, it is somewhat awkward with the others. I would like complete mineral walls, if an enemy wants to use it then they can mine it out, which adds a purpose to bringing workers with an attack.

Except for the mains there are virtually no chokes. Defending these expos will be hard imo, not just for z, but it would hurt z the most.

I hope the decoration turns out nice later

This map isn't bad, it's just inconsiderate toward z defense and inconsiderate toward t always because of the huge open area; of course the nat openness helps t in tvz but otherwise it hurts them. The map looks boring, perhaps that is only because you havn't decorated it yet, but I doubt that will help too much. The middle is so open and useless. The only reason to use it would be as an alternative route. Now that I think about it, the huge openness won't help z that much since the other races don't need to use it. Making the mineral wall complete will help I think, and certainly adding chokes somewhere will also help this. I think you should try to create a need to use the center, as it is useless now.

Not my favourite map of yours

I think the map could be a lot better (potential is always good) but I don't like it too much as of now.
modified by Nightmarjoo
LGI
What can i say... It's one of the most anti-terran maps i've ever seen. Not only of the two entraces. Just look at the expansions positions. How could terran protect more then one expand? It's hard for every race - true! But at least they are way more mobile then terran. Zerg can win vs terran only whit running away all game, while protoss can attack from 2 sides and it's wide enough for him to play well.

Imo, the concept of this map is not for two entrances. Delete the crushed rock entrace and make a second entrace to the low ground expands, again whit crushed rock custum ramps. And make them again whit the the smooth way that you've made the "arms". I hope you get what i mean. And that way you will have something like a burning sun lights and will be prety beautifull.

See GMCS, to see my idea for the second ramp.

You can also re-make a little the mains. Not right to the map edge, if you get what i mean, just make a very little cliff right before the map edge, to make it a little "curly".

And really try to think of something about the center, you have enough space to make something intresting.
modified by LGI
Antares
cabaret of older elements? neither of Rpoint or illusion made those changes first

also these are not that "develops" that makes the map fresh, in my opinion it is more experimental than the mentioned above, because the two entrances (which could cause also some imbalances)
spinesheath
Fine :) Everything after Fry's comment is how I wanted it. Thanx ;)

@ Fry: I will one day make a map especially for you. New, something the world has not seen yet.

I can't really see what you are talking about the expansion layout of illusion...
Hmm, I can't show you the pic I just made up, because my image host does not respond and I don't feel like creating an account somewhere else just for you. I put together some maps that all feaure a star in the center, in variations of course.
And I could give you about eleventeen quadrillion maps with an almost squarish center with like 2 obstacles in it. Great maps, btw.
Apart from that, you seem to have nothing better to do that talking to yourself. Because I don't give a **** to your comments.

So, I try to conclude: It's very anti-terran, but zerg can only win by running away ;) A map of opposites, definately.

The suggestion with the new entrance sound good to me, actually I have been searching for a way how to realize something like this before. But what I would like the most is if you could decide to take either your gas or minonly natural... I got some idea right now, maybe I can realize it... If not, I will favor your suggestion, it seems good.

About the defendability of the expansions: There are only the mains and 1 nat with gas, the nat is very hard to defend (cliffable and open). That certainly was intended. The map itself offers a platform for huge armies but it will be very hard to get the gas for those units.
I think I could tighten the not-yet-choke to the minonly so that you could get a nice position there; it would raise the strategic importance of that area.
The other minonlies may get tighter chokes as well, dunno yet. As it is now, 4 and 10 are more open, while 1 and 7 are farer away but tighter. I guess 4 and 10 need to get tighter chokes.

@Nightmnarijoo: Well, closing that minwall is a big no-no. I truly wanted to do so too, but since it is the shortest route to the opponent, pathing problems occur. I even tested it ;)
modified by spinesheath
spinesheath
Update: I did just opload a new picture, and the only interesting thing is in the top left. It's just to give you an idea of what I am planning to do.
I guess I will use a double entrance that can be blocked with one wall/some zealots/choke hatch.
(I know, Fry, this is NOT new). Actually this is exactly what is needed for my concept, I don't know why I didn't make it that way right from the start.

Of course this is just poorly drawn out, I will have to do this with custom terrain, and it will take quite a while to rearrange everything, so I uploaded this picture to allow for discussion meanwhile. I believe you are clever enough to know what I want to do ;)
Allstar.HeaT
The top left corner of this map has a ramp down to the expansions but none of the other bases do, I don't know if it is a good thing or a bad thing, it gives easy access to gas expo for that person, but it gives 2 entries to main.
LGI
Dear Allstar.HeaT.

If you would like to respect your comments and be read by everyone else, then you should do the same. READ THE OTHER COMMENTS, THEN TALK.
spinesheath
Meh, that was funny :D
Cosmi
Looks AMAZING! Wow!

It's too deep into the night to judge something more:-).
spinesheath
Amazing is probably a LITTLE too much ;) You'll be out of words once I finished it if you start that way ;)
Antares
oO

it seems you will need inverted ramps, that you cant really create on this tileset :O
spinesheath
I will do it with crushed rock, it was just faster to put a doodad there ;)

Upadate, just to "release" my ramps. chokes still need a workover.
modified by spinesheath
Nightmarjoo
center could use some work too

I would rather the crushed rock ramps were at the end of the nat, not before it. I would also rather the nat had gas, and the gas expo be mineral only, and make the 4th expo have gas. If you did that then you could leave the ramps where they are. Some article on map making basics on this site says something about how nats should have gas, and if they don't they should be like nostalgia where the mineral only nat is a good choke to the main. Having the ramps before the nat and have the nat be mineral only would pretty much make the expo with gas the nat, which I think would be fine if that's the direction you want to take. In conclusion I have nothing conclusive to say, but that I wouldn't take that mineral only on the cliff first with that ramp where it is (I'm zerg).
NastyMarine
the center is too open put some doodads or high sunken ground to divide the middle alil bit..

it looks hard to secure the nat tho the main/nat layout is done nicely.. i recommend that u removew that backdoor at the gas nat.
Nightmarjoo
You didn't say anything I didn't...
spinesheath
Of course the center needs a lot of work Oo I mentioned that pretty early I guess, and you shouldn't think that I would make SUCH a plain map.

I don't care about what any article says about which expansion should be gas and which should be minonly. That way I would always get a lt-style expansion layout, and that obviously was not the intention on this map.

This expansion concept is a lot like gaema's, and thus not necessarily unplayable.

Of course the minerals/gas will be slightly rearranged, I don't want the gas right infront of the ramp :p
Nightmarjoo
oO just me saying what I was thinking

Where is the update to this map! It's been a while lol
spinesheath
I am working on an update. But I also work on other things, so it is likely it will take 1 or 2 more days.

Ok, uploaded a new version. Middle still not done, but I think the expansion-choke layout should be pretty nice. Except the 4th expansions ;)
You opinions...?
Uh, damn, I made the pic with SCMD2 before the hatchery sprites were away... Well, at least this proves that I checked the distance of the ramps from the minonlies ;)
modified by spinesheath
Nightmarjoo
OMG THE MIDDLE LOOKS LIKE CRAP ;D

um looks ok. How many minerals does that wall have?
spinesheath
80 minerals. It's meant for having a bigger path to move your units through only. The expansion layout makes the gameplay difficult enough, I don't think it's a good idea to add such mineralwall cheese as well ;)
LoS)iQ.Superi0r
nice and fresh looking map balance is ok
starparty
this map could benefit from some pimpin'...
spinesheath
blub :D

Well, I was about to pimp it myself, bit by bit, everyday a little ;) But you are free to do so, I'd really like to see what you have in mind with it :D

Do I have to submit it to the contest for that? ;)

Submitted :P
modified by spinesheath
LGI
I think those min blocks will fuck up your path finding. How will you feel when your min only natural whit the building in front of you is attacked by someone and your amry is in your base? Will you have the time to move them slowly whit many clicks just to dodge the min blocks? I don't think so...
Antares
i would lower the amount from 80, whos gonna mine it? you can mine the crystals for three or four turns max if you are willing to increase the choke as attacker, but you will never ever try to mine it if its more
spinesheath
@LGI: You got a point there; the minblocks indeed are placed in a shape that may cause pathing problems. I have played some games vs comps though, and didn't see any problems there. But I didn't look for this in particular, so I guess I will test it.

About the value of the minblocks: Yes, I can reduce the amount. But remember, it's meant for the "defending" player only. So I think anything below 40 is too low. And just remember coulee, you mined those 500 minerals with ease on it if you were going for ground domination. 80 really is not that much, you send 1 or 2 peons to harvest them once you got your natural and want a bigger choke. It doesn't take very long, because you have a cc/nex/hatch near it.

Edit: I tested pathfinding with mass dragoons on those minwalls. They actually almost never walked into the "gap" formed by the minerals. Only once a single dragoon got stuck in there on the bottom right position. I tried it several times again and it never happened again. I want to point out that they didn't even enter that gap, they walked straigt by. And the speed they passed trough the choke was overwhelming for a dragoon army. 36 Dragoons just ran through like water, almost beautiful ;) Only like 3-4 started to walk along the cliff as usually when you move lots of dragoons through a choke. But they went through after returning ;)

I also noticed that the way it is now, the mineral wall will be automatically mined on 11 and 5 once you start your mineralonly. 1 and 7 probably don't, but I didn't test it. I just wanted to hear your opinions - should it be the 11/5 way, automatically, or the 1/7 way, non-automatically?

I also have to add that the mains are quite large till now, but I am aware and will change it a) once I need some space for whatever or b) when decorating the map.

I am also wondering if the size of the ramps between minonly/gas nat is ok, or maybe too small. It's similar to a standard ramp right now.
modified by spinesheath
LGI
I just want to know where exatcly did you click on the map while you were holding the dragoons army? If i were you i would change the min blocks whith some doodads and if you want to make the choke wider in late games, then put doodads and the last peace can be a mineral block. It somehow more normal to see in a map then min blocks, natural buildings, tilecrap shits and staff like this, which i hate prety much, because most of those things can be changed whit normal staff. For me it's just useless on some of the maps.

About the ramps, well i think you can do better whit the decoration thing whit terrain. I will draw you what i mean in paint when i have time and post it.
spinesheath
I moved my armies from inside the main to the minonly natural, and sometimes I moved them through the whole map. I guess you can say I covered most relevant ingame situations, it does not work any worse than a normal choke.
Actually this is not surprising, if you know that minerals are treated as buildings and how units behave on a walled ramp.

Because the expansions are so vulnerable on this map, you need to be able to move around large armies quickly. That's why you can widen the choke, and that's also why I am wondering if the choke between minonly/gasnat is too tight.

Of course I can decorate it better. I just did the most basic things now...
flothefreak
i think you should pick this one up again. make sure you cannot shoot the natural with tanks from below, move the minonly to the water so you can take it against a terran (in his mainbase) and give it a gas, add minonlies on GMCS spots.

some suggestions of how i would edit it, but i like the setup with this strange gasexpansion and all stuff. keep working on this! the map favor terran in many aspects, but the center compensates this. very interesting imo.
spinesheath
If I am going to pick up that map again (maybe...), I will certainly use a different tileset. Twilight is way too unforgiving when it comes to extended terrain. Would have to think about it, though.
NastyMarine
Can you finish this map PLEASE!
spinesheath
Erm... Can't you do that for me? I can't seem to get into the mood of melee mapping lately...
Also, LGI had asked me if he could finish it, but I never heard anything more about it, so I guess he won't. Maybe my condition to upload it here was the reason...

Anyways, right now I am working on an ISOM algorithm, and that will bring me by far more reputation oversized self-consciousness than this map ;)
Excalibur
This post is not displayed due to its content
MorroW
pathing issue?, maybe ull need to build a supply depot in the mini ramps later to execute that problem :)

overall i think it will be imbalanced
spinesheath
There's no pathing issue as in units get stuck somewhere, but the shortest paths (except for diagonally) are fairly tight indeed.

Nice that you work on my map, though :)

I must agree that this map probably is no easy one to balance. But it's worth a try! ^^

I have no idea what the password could be anymore...
modified by spinesheath
MorroW
12345 maybe :P
spinesheath
Nevar
Excalibur
Edit: Im going to add a t on the end and upload it tonight when im done with it, if you want me to change anything or dont like it, just post in the thread and ill change/remove it.
modified by Excalibur
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