ohh finally grief made a map, i am very pleased :D
imo the central battlefield is way tight, imagine a zerg player when try to avoid storms, that needs very big space, but here it looks impossible, because of the waterholes
i myself dont like ring-shaped centers, the only two ways cause that there will be limited tactical possibilities and less flankability. but maybe thats just my crochet :)
and finally a question
whats your intention with those sunken ground pits above/below the mains? because they seem to help the T so much, of course this needs to be tested modified by Antares
pathing will suck for corners for the two path thing I bet, if map is at all symetrical...
south can take nat with 2hatch north has to use 3? that's pretty basic pos imba... North's hatch at the nat doesn't even get in front of the nat at full length, southern does, not to mention a sunk just in front would defend ramp =/
I don't think this map has any balance of open/tight, it's either open or tight, and not very many open places.
Center temple is pointless, might as well open up the middle, you can keep the temple =/
gas issue...
S/N/W/E bases look like a nightmare to defend pvz, no choke, and room to attack on both sides.
Yes you can fit tanks on the tiny cliff at the nat. Because of the way he did it, you can fit more tanks in the north than in the south.
Templar you can move units behind both E/W expos
The gap N/S of the mains allows tanks to be dropped and do good damage (or land factory), other races will be able to do much less since their units lack the tank's range.
Decoration is bland in areas (mineral onlys for example), which is funny since you obsessed over GP's decoration.
The only open areas are between horiz bases, and between vert bases in the middle there;
The valleys near the mains are unever, east sides have less room; in those areas you also have some tiles which are unbuildable, this isn't even at all, and is rather silly.
pvt vert or corner positions will be hard since t can wall/push to the choke at N/S and secure 5 gas easily, if t can do that it will be very hard for p to attack that by ground. p cannot likewise take a half of the map that way, because the tight choke would make it easy for terran to attack any mass there. Actually, I doubt t will wall at their side of the map, they will wallin protoss... This doesn't happen in horiz positions. Horiz pos are much closer than vert/corners.
Except for north having to 3hatch, I like the nat setup, it allows room for small drops/cheese, or room to make gates and stuff. The mains are ok, except for gas issue (bottom geyser mines much slower than top geyser). The symetrical decoration is pretty boring.
I think if you opened the middle up, and gave the mineral onlys a choke by tightening that part, the map would be nicer.
The map has quite a bit of positional imbalance, and probably racial imbalance too; by no means a bad map, but reminds me strongly of lt in its imbalances.
thank you all,for the comments.it would be a little hard to answer everyone.it's enough to say i fixed some things.
i'm disposed to change some other things also,but after i see the issues in the game.i have already play the map with evry race.so far i can say,i don't find any important charges.nightmarjoo suggest a gas issue.i dont think so,just because the gas in the N mains are placed on the bottom and in the S mains on top.cause in the nat the gas pos.is placed contrariwise.
if some of you are prepared to upload some reps for me,this would be a great help by upgrading this map.just in the case you think it's necessary
Say I am playing an intense zvz, top vs bottom. When do you think I would get an exmpansion running to compensate for the lack of gas? Too late, certainly.
not in my opinion.cause as z you expand always early and the nat is really easy to defend with sunks and spores.and after this,when the nat works on the full capacity it depends just on the tactic you choose and the skills you posses
it depends always on the way you playing.nightmarjoo,be mindful!spinesheath says zvz top vs bottom.in the case of zvz both top(or both bottom)i'm with you.but so in my opinion the distance gives you enough time to be prepared if the other attacks.
ok,i think after all the modfications that i done,it is enough.for me the work on this map is finished now.i tested her many times,now evryone is invited to do the same thing;if you want,of course..
@Grief_S I tried to test your map,but for some unknown reasons it was impossible for others to join into the game.Perhaps I possess a older version?;I will download the map again.
This is annoying and unexplainable.You are right.If you play in the single mode(vs comp),no pain.But in the multiplayer modus,no chance to join into the game.
as long as you deny obvious flaws (gas issue?! HELLO! do you want to lose a game if you play as good as your enemy only because he gets 3-4 mutas more at the same time? --- too tight map to beat terran) neither you, nor your map will get far.
i dont believe you tested this really to the bones. if you did, you would recognize what we say. you are blinded by your ego, fucking accept what 12384952 other people with experience say.
the map itself looks beautiful in picture, but i think it's too tight in the middle. Terran looks damn powerful on this map so I wouldn't play it since i'm a Zerg player :P
sometimes gotta sacrifice having it look pretty in your mind for gameplay and balance. modified by Alumni modified by Alumni
it's the last time when i try to explain this map.
about the tightness near to the bridges:i dont intend to make maps just to z & p.on this map this is the only place on there t can use a tight area to his own advantage.but,damn people should i learn you how you have to deal with this situation in a game? as p i choose a drop strategy vs a t that blocked this area.4 shuttles with reavers + high templars dropped in the t base have maked him look bad.cause you cant be everywhere.it's just a way under many.
about the gas issue:the horizontal balance is ensured - i hope theirs no doubt.in a z(north) vs z(south) the worries because of the different pos. of the gas are easy to explain.firtstly the gas pos.in the nat can compensate this,cause the position is here different.and in the early game you have enough time to build some spores if you really believe you dont have enough time to have the same number of mutas like your rival.but i think with a drone more on the gas you can handle this.and what a issue this was,boah!
@flothefreak you can betcha that i have tested my own map.but all those who lamenting havent do it.i dont assume that the map is flawless but i like the different way it plays.btw i reached this not because i used amounts of neutrals or webs. modified by Grief_Stricken
yeah, build spores when your enemy doesnt need them. waste some more drones and mins. this will help you when your enemy has more mutas, give him more drones and minerals, too.
esp. in ZvZ every drone counts, so a 4th gasdrone DOES count ffs. and MANY players still dont know about the gas issue, and when you need 4 workers.
are you crazy? _4_ shuttles with reaver and HT/storm? terran will laugh, and steamroll you because you have no groundforce... lol, that is just ridiculos. maybe suggest 12 carriers to that drop! terran wont expand and kill you before.
but let's hope this is REALLY the last time where you "expain" things.
The whole map is tight. I case you don't know: Gaia is considered to have a slightly tight middle, especially for one half vs the other half of the map games.
4 shuttles with reavers + hts. Wow. I wonder why progamers never use these, when it's so effective and simple.
@flothefreak i am speechless about your so called strategy skills.so everything you do in a zvz is to copy your rival?elaborate stategy,indeed.
those 4 shuttles is what i done in that game,this is not a law chiseled in stone.you can use more if you want,also land in different areas of the main,or you can land parallel in the main and a expo.i just offer a possibility to attack a t that blocked the bridge area.cant you understand?
also no one said you shouldnt build other units for the case that the t attacks in the meantime.also not just the t can expand,no one stop you to do the same thing.
@spinesheat for those who believe gaia is tight,this map would be also tight.cant help them.i dont have watched the pgamers in the last months closely,but i can assure you their are some wich use their brain instead of playing banal strategies again and again.for example,in germany it was socke that use pretty frequently as p,this drop strategy modified by Grief_Stricken
progamers dont use 4shuttle reavers and HT cuz its so dumb... the other guy will kill at least 2 shuttles and there goes a big chunk of ur money.... then they counter and u die....
yes flo is right in ZVZ indeed EVERY drone counts... and if u try an "alternate strategy" then rofl!!!!!!! zvz is muta dominated.... y u gona waste money on spore/hydra wen the other guy just gona fly around everywhere? and since u are wastin money on being defensive that means the other guy puts more of his money on expansion, and every expansion counts for ZvZ.... i assure you no progamer in ZvZ will use alternte strats then scourge ling muta -_-
and also, yes this map is pretty tight.... plus tanks can camp at the ramps from nat to mid... and Z or P still has to run around that curvy thingy before getting to the tanks.
also is this version working for multiplayer melee matches yet? cuz who wants to comp stomp on a T imba map all day?
man -_-
who da hell doesn't ling/scourge/muta in ZvZ? you tell me!
4 shuttles?! the only time i've heard of huge drops (4+ transports) in games is TvT. The other mu's I see like 2-3 transports max?
i think it's useless to comment any more suggestions for this seeing as you're not listening or taking advice from anyone. the gameplay here will always be imba for certain mu's
This comes when you watch pros and try to imitate their moves.Btw this is not far away from a monkey behavior,you know? That is a reason why zvz are the most boring games in the leagues.
It is possible to use a other strategy in zvz.And from my experience I can say it is effective,if you do it right.The alternative is hydra-lurks-scourge.It's also cheaper because you dont need to upgrade flying units to,also mutas are much expensive as hydras are.
If I understand right he talks about the drop-strategy in a tvp,when t blocks the middle.As p is ok,if you have the skills for it.Not a noob choice for sure,but it works.
pros would also use hyrda-lurk-scourge if it would be as effective as muta-ling, dont you think? hyrda-lurk is weaker - they may win battles, but you sacrifice mobility, which is the key to win in ZvZ. a muta-zerg can easily hold your troops in your base when always hit-and-running your main and natural. plus, they can counter faster once you won a battle.
i give you an advise - just for your future writing activities on this site.before you post a comment you should know what you talking about - cause you run the risk for alot people to dismiss you.
and now to your little gossip;firstly pathes can't be small.they can be tight or short.both of them are not present here,thats why your claim is groundless.and about a gas issue,well it's obvious you don't understand the meaning of this wording.it means that a player have a more adequate way to gather gas than the others.now look to the picture or better open the map in the editor(it's more precisely) and answer yourself wich player can gather slower than others.
btw,evry time when you have doubts about things like this open the editor and proof things before you post a useless comment.firstly,because it's wiser and secondly it could prevent you to lose your reputation. modified by Grief_Stricken
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(4)Temple of Luna
