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Last update for (4)Shushan Day 1.1 : 2007, 03, 10 15:48
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
2024 (4)Shushan Day 1.1 128*128Nightmarjoo0.5beta

The map has been rated 53 times and got a total of 29 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


DG)SpoilR
I think to place the min.lines so close on N,S and center is a bad idea,cause for terrans is not very hard to control those areas with their tanks.On N and S tanks already can land on those compounds walls.

It's easy and also funny to see how careful for his race,a zerg player maded this map.Also for his intentions,fast expansions and rushes.The position of the resources in the mains nearly to the nat indicates this intention.
LostTampon
i dont see why you made the map so asymmetric, try to use the symmetry tool for scmdraft :)
Nightmarjoo
hmm SpoilR I also considered many of the things in your first paragraph; the expos in the center are there so that vert pos have an expo between eachother, an expo to take/fight over, I did not want to place them in E/W because those areas are 1. different sizes 2. used for harassing the nat.
"On N and S tanks already can land on those compounds walls"...and any other unit. The compound walls at N/S could easily be made flat, but they allow other forms of harass which are often lost after midgame, and I seriously don't think it creates any imbalance, someone taking those expos would have to worry about such harass.

" dont see why you made the map so asymmetric, try to use the symmetry tool for scmdraft :)" 1. I don't have it nor the means to obtain it as of late :( 2. Nasty has commented about the linear aspect of many of my maps, so I tried to shy away from that.

SpoilR, the nats are made so you can easily expo without hurting unit pathing at all, this helps all races; if the distances support rushing all three races can use/are hurt by that, and if the nats favour FEing then that also effects all three races, there is no zerg favouring involved. Bare in mind pvz many p like FEing, a good z rush will stop/delay/annoy a p FE regardless of distance, Ps who 2gate or 1gate rush with shorter distances would do more damage disfavouring zerg. The distances could hurt t pvt, but the nat shape would make it easier for t to defend ending imo any imbalance there. At the same time, the open ground allows p to not be hurt by allowing terran an easy nat.
Bare in mind though, the shape/position of the nats was solely made for pathing purposes, not to effect the game racially.

One of the later things I did with the map was to change the mineral formations, testing showed one block to be not perfect, so I changed them, apparently I missed editing NE's main formation, I have changed it now and when I have the chance to I'll upload the edit. I'd like to get more input beforehand though so I can change more stuff before taking my time to upload the edit. I still don't have my internet back :(

With those middle expos, I would rather keep them than remove them. It would hurt the gameplay in vert pos to not have those expos imo, I haven't thought of a better substitute.

"I think to place the min.lines so close on N,S and center is a bad idea,cause for terrans is not very hard to control those areas with their tanks" lol it's just a 6block mineral only.

I could add compound to W to try and correct the size difference from E/W area between vert nats, but I think the pos imba here is ignorable and that if anything it would hurt the area. Please give feedback on that issue.

I'd also like feedback on the use of spells in the map; should I add more? If so, whither? Any comments on my current use of them?
lnept
dont like all hte random shit. doesnt really have a flow. just a basic outline of a map then it looks like you added a bunch of stuff just to piss people off. (like those power generators, wtf)

and the random disruption webs....the hell?
Nightmarjoo
haha no when I want to piss people off I just write fuck them in the map ;)

power generators I spose are useless, just there to slow taking the expo =/

The dwebs aren't random, they're in the open area to add strategy :)
LGI
This post is not displayed due to its content
lnept
LOL ^
Nightmarjoo
What'd he say?
LaO-Artanis
He said he likes to eat blue taco's with raspberry juice.
spinesheath
Exactly.
Nightmarjoo
yeah I understand why you'd want to censor that, I mean jeeze that was extreme...^^
spinesheath
If LaO-Artanis says it, it's fine.
Nightmarjoo
lol of course
Lancet
If the scantids are there to prevent tank drops near the mains that is not quite effective. Their comings and goins create spaces were a tank can be dropped, but it is an improvement over using minerals! It would be better to introduce two islands W/E and fill the space in between the mains and islands with tar. Also bunch up those dwebs N/S. Interesting but scary concept of having 2 swarms in your main!

Shushan Purin is a jewish festivity that commemorates the foiling of the attempt by evil Haman to kill the jews in Persia as described in the book of Esther, and he is reputed to have worn a 3 cornered hat. Cute, but the only connection with the map that I can see is the desert landscape.
Nightmarjoo
lol I know what Purim is-- and yes there is no connection from the map and the Purim story except that I'm sure Persia is a very deserty place. Last year around Purim I made Shushan, so I made this one, Purim is nearby again :O I have a third Shushan map in the making, Shushan Nights, it's no where near done.

I might bunch of the dwebs, they did very little in the few games I've played. As for the swarms, it added a lot to the game in my games on my map SPESFIDISSIMA, which currently isn't on the site.

As for adding islands to E/W, I already explained why I didn't want a ground expo there, I don't think islands will work either.

Please give me ideas on what to do to N/S, I want to have a gas expo and a mineral only expo in those areas, but have no definite ideas as to how I will execute that.
I think I will take out the mineral onlys and give each player a mineral only along the tar, meh lt style but I'll add some special shit too.

I know the scantids aren't perfect, they don't need to be.
DG)SpoilR
Are you a jew,Nightmare[jew]? Just curious.

Cause you mentioned in one of your past comments the hanukah.If yes,it could be a reason why you are so polemic.I know privatly some of them thats why I conclude this.
lancet
SpoilR, that's a stereotype.

Nightmarjoo, the problem with the Scantids is that once you find a hole to drop your tank it is very hard for the enemy to find an adjacent hole to drop a unit to counter (goliath, rine, hydra, goon). Of course you can go air (mutas, wraiths, scouts), but oh well, that's life.
modified by lancet
DG)SpoilR
@Lancet,you are wrong.I dont generalise about what I'm saying.Please,next time read carefully.I say"it could be a reason why you are so polemic",and not"it's a reason why you are so polemic".So the option is open that is not necessary that evry jew is polemic.Wich is actually my honest opinion.I also know some obscene italians,but i never conclude that evry italian is obscene.
Nightmarjoo
Yeah SpoilR I am Jewish, not that it at all effects what I say, just makes me superior and all, you know^^ And yeah that's the derrivation of my name too :)

lancet yeah I see the issue, but on the other hand, killing 1 tank isn't that hard, it's when you can make 2 bunkers 3 turrets and have 5 tanks that makes it hard to attack^^

@lancet, it's not a stereotype if it's true!
I don't construe SpoilR's comment to intend offense at all.
modified by Nightmarjoo
spinesheath
jfyi: If you used high dirt to do the cliffwork between the naturals, you could get rid of all those critters.

Really Nightmarjoo, learn to use terrain and tilesets correctly. If something does not work out with some kind of terrain or tileset, consider a different one.
lancet
Ooops, sorry SpoilR, I did not mean my comment in that way. I just think that those sort of generalizations are not very accurate or helpful even if phrased in terms of “it could”. There are probably better explanations for Nightmarjoo’s argumentative nature but I have found him mostly to be very helful in this forum. Unlike others that, when you upload a map, show up and type something like “P > T, gg” and leave, Nightmarjoo actually bothers to write sometimes several paragraphs about what he thinks is wrong with the map and what you should do about it. I have found him to be one of the most useful and competent posters in this forum.

Nightmarjoo, just in case your ego has swelled to the point of bursting from reading the above, let me tell you that I still think the scantids should go and the region be replaced by islands.
LostTampon
much too open, mayb you could tighten the map a bit + making 12 and 6 o'clock expansions islands would be a good idea i think (for better gameplay)
Nightmarjoo
lol spines how am I sposed to know if I'm going to have a tileset problem if I don't come to a problem until most of the map is already made?
I might fix up the nats and use high dirt instead, idk.

LostTampon I will think about islands, and I might try tightening it/adding more spells.

thanks lancet, but "I have found him to be one of the most useful and competent posters in this forum" I try to be useful, but idk about competent, sometimes I go see comments I made a while ago and say omg wtf was I high on lol ><

"region be replaced by islands" Why are mappers obsessed with islands -_-
spinesheath
That's why you plan maps before you make them.
Nightmarjoo
wtf it's like a painting, you have general ideas about it but you won't know what the finished product will be until you make it. I spose a nazi would say that's a bad way to make maps :O
spinesheath
Rofl what has nazism to to with that now?

You see yourself that you run into problems if you don't plan the map out before you make it. You had to place those critters on this map, and those minerals on that ice map you did not too long ago.
That's why you should grab a pencil and a sheet of paper and draw the basic layout of the map. Maybe 10 or 20 lines, you don't need to go into detail. Then you look for a tileset that has the wanted terrain (buildable/non-buildable, height levels) and cliffs between the needed terrain types.
For that Ice map, you would have come to the conclusion that there is no highSnow-to-Water cliff. This map is possible on desert, but the compound needs to be exchanged for HighDirt.

And believe me, that drawing is worth the effort. The time you spend on fixing problems, and the negative aspects that you map will have if you can't fix issues properly, are worse than those 1-2 minutes.
Nightmarjoo
"know what the finished product will be until you make it"

"This map is possible on desert, but the compound needs to be exchanged for HighDirt" it works now already -_- don't worry, an edit is under work already.
"but the compound needs to be exchanged for HighDirt" no it works now :O

lol just noticed Captain Obvious posted some gmcs

"Rofl what has nazism to to with that now?" nothing, you miss my point; nazis were all about specific detailed plans and decisive shit, whereas mapping imo is an art, an artist may or may not know what they are painting, some may just start painting whatever comes to mind, others model it right off of something, but they won't know what the finished product will look like until they finish the painting or w/e work of art.
When I make maps I usually just have some concepts in mind, make the map and use them somehow. The only map I tried to draw and make ended up horribly different from the drawing because the drawing was unrealistic. I spose you could say "omg draw maps realisticly then", but it's a lot easier said than done, not to mention I can't draw in isometric; I don't know off-hand every single way the terrain interacts

oh and since you're such a pro mapper let's see more maps from you -.-
spinesheath
If you meant me with "Captain Obvious", then stop guessing you can't know. I didn't post a single GMC.

That drawing is just to help you decide on the tileset and terrain choice. If you prefer to end up making bad maps, that's your thing. It consumes by far less time to plan the map out than it takes to edit it, or even redo it on another tileset. Also you don't have to draw it exactly: I said 10-20 lines is enough. Just so much that you can see the places that might become relevant for the tileset choice.

About arts: There are hundreds of directions in arts. Some guys just take a big canvas, some buckets of paint, smoke some weed and just plunge the paint all over the canvas. There also is a form of arts called constructivism, which, as the name implies, relies heavily on planning. Also, some random-looking pieces of arts were planned out carefully. Arts is NOT just doing something.

I am no pro mapper. It's always the same argument people try to bring... Just because I am no pro it doesn't mean that I am wrong. I didn't invent that method myself, in fact I have caught it up from several good mappers on BWMN. Also, when I make a map, I do not run into problems like having to fill large areas with minerals or critters.
modified by spinesheath
Nightmarjoo
Captain Obvious is whoever gmced, I mentioned no names oO

Having scantids to fill an area does not make a map bad, I've seen scantids used to fill holes in tons of maps that were good maps.
This is in a beta stage, obviously the map needs editing, I never said it was the final product; I made this and uploaded it to get suggestions and whatnot, no need to call the beta a bad map.

I don't at all care about what you run into when making maps.
Nightmarjoo
Changes:
  • Nat compound redone with highground
  • decoration redone a bit
  • N/S reformed: those are islands with 4 5000hp temples blocking a back entrance, 20000 is fairly secure splash will kill it much faster ie tanks will kill all 4 at the same time in siege mode but only 1 at a time unsieged.
    I'm well aware that I could have done the N/S with higround and not used those krystals or just extended the compound, please don't remind me of this.
  • Dwebs added to main chokes and middle expos, swarm added to middle.
  • Those highground blocks in the middle were added to tighten it up a little; I felt that the new expo layout of the N/S tightened it quite a bit already from before.
  • lnept
    what the hell
    Nightmarjoo
    thanks lnept
    Nightmarjoo
    oh come on, nothing else? Not even someone to flame me? =/
    ProTosS4EveR
    Those Khaladrin Cristals are ugly like that and i don't think it's a good issue.
    LostTampon
    holy mother of god
    Nightmarjoo
    thanks LostTampon^^
    tktkvroom
    much better then 1st version
    Lancet
    In the NW and SW mains tanks can be dropped close to the places I signaled in the GMCS (what does GMCS stand for?), time to bring back SOME scantids?

    Get rid of those ugly Khandaryn crystal formations (in this map they have a black outline, yuck). A few are OK, but there are too many. Yes, those expos can then be tanked, so what? Man, does this fixation with siege tanks affect all zerg players?
    Lancet
    Those single dwebs at the corners serve no purpose. The function of the ones in the center are also questionable. Put more behind the minerals so workers will not be attacked from there (if you can) or on top ofthe workers to protect them from melle units. Alternatively bunch them up in open ground so they can be used for attack/defense. In the NW and SW mains tanks can be dropped close to the places I signaled in the GMCS (what does GMCS stand for?), time to bring back SOME scantids?

    Get rid of those ugly Khandaryn crystal formations (in this map they have a black outline, yuck). A few are OK, but there are too many. Yes, those expos can then be tanked, so what? Man, does this fixation with siege tanks affect all zerg players?
    Nightmarjoo
    I will look into tank holes, scantids ftw!
    "Those single dwebs at the corners serve no purpose" wrong, please use imaginations.

    "Man, does this fixation with siege tanks affect all zerg players?" Racial balance - if protoss and zerg cannot reap the benefits that terran can is that not an imbalance, and therefore, my job as map maker, to correct it? My race has nothing to do with it. Not only that, if all three races could abuse that expo, no one would use it, it would be too vulknerable imo.

    "Alternatively bunch them up..." I am confused as to how people place bunched spells without crashing the game, if their collision box touches the game crashes in lobby, and sprites have a fucking huge collision box.

    "much better then 1st version" thanks, I would have to agree :)
    lnept
    seems the only chance of surviving pvt is to drop reavers into the dark swarm and just pwn everything. if they supply it your screwed. there is a shitload of expos down the paths, horizontal is specifically horrendous as its extremely narrow and they get a free min only on the way to your inevitable death. vertical might be better, doubtful though
    Nightmarjoo
    hmm what do you suggest then, to help pvt?
    lnept
    get rid of the min onlies.
    Nightmarjoo
    hmm what if I was to keep the mineral onlys but tear back the krystals and have the mineral onlys against the island wall? That would open it up a bit, and keep the neutral expo there. Removing them would severely deplete the map of resources imo.
    Nightmarjoo
    push! feedback on my question please
    LostTampon
    ""Those single dwebs at the corners serve no purpose" wrong, please use imaginations."
    True, helps e.g. p in pvz a lot - you could hide your scoutprobe there

    hm, this map needs a huge polish; the layout could be improved a lot and also the decoration (e.g. the expo placement and layout dont really work out together)
    although you try to place a lot of new ideas, you should rethink the layout of the map
    i like the idea of the expos @12 and @6, but im sure there are other, better solutions how to implement them and their surround areas
    Nightmarjoo
    well the map was based on the main/nat layout, after that I added mineral onlys to have expos between the bases to fight over, and the N/S expos for some gas in the map, but they really were just addonsish. I don't know what to do with this, gmcs/more specific ideas/your own pimping or something would be greatly appreciated.
    Lancet
    You could hide the scout in the dweb at the choke and be closer to the action. But I see your point, a protoss probe in the back of your base is something you don't want to have and until you get ranged units it will be invulnerable if it can jump in and out of the dweb while trying to warp in stuff.
    RaDiX
    IS this a joke? Nightmarjoo OMG....
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