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Last update for (4)Thunderbolt : 2008, 02, 10 19:41
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
2227 (4)Thunderbolt 128*128Artanis, PIMPED by flothefreak0.9final

The map has been rated 36 times and got a total of 31 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


flothefreak
Artanis' prayers for a rainy day came true:

I finally pimped his (4)Lightning , which had a great concept, but lacked execution, decoration and pos. balance.
As i still believe in this concept, i gave it a shot and gave it a better look, and hopefully a smoother gameplay.
I kept the map from the structure as much as i could, but there were some things i could not resist to add/change to really pimp it. So i flipped the 12h/6h expos from the edge to the center, gave it two blocked entrances and a split mineralline, of which only 1 line of the minerals can be shot from outside, so you can still take one half against terran. similar to (2)Trench warfare. I also added a empty double gas to the 3h/9h minonlies. I figured those expos should have a gas, so it gets used. i kept the 2gas theme there, but without this heavy gas boost from the natural. Center formations are pos. balanced now as well.
Mainbases are large enough, even if they seem small.

I uploaded it with a new title, but kept triggers and descriptions. Only a note that i modified it can be found there.
I just figured the Lightning doesnt fit anymore, so i took a synonym which mirrors the map phoneticwise.
Enjoy (4)Thunderbolt - concept and source map by Artanis, pimped by flothefreak.
lnept
sure it looks cooler, but it still plays just as bad. why do I want 13 minerals in my main again... if zerg never secures a 3rd expo which will be extremely difficult as they are all pretty easily hit, how is zerg expected to come back in the game? all tech is delayed considering the setup, and what other choice do you have then to cheese or FE, seems a little wierd. as soon as protoss, terran economy kick in I think it will eb too late for zerg to somehow get another expo.
flothefreak
--->
modified by flothefreak
flothefreak
zerg can expand faster than terran or protoss, and it gets a huge gasboost. together with lings being very effective against slow zeals/marines, you cant tell from theorycraft you cant win as zerg...

and before you try to argue "this map doesnt work", explain how you play and win zerg on scope lens.
modified by flothefreak
Nightmarjoo
Northern ramps are guarded much more so by their nat than the southern ones are by their own. Some inverts + symmetry would do wonders here. Map definitely looks hard for zerg, no way to hide an expo and none are easy to defend at all.
NastyMarine
i love the execution ---> godly. Like Joel pointed out, the naturals are in different positions (north is in a better position to gaurd the entrance to the main and nat. But im not sure its a big difference or not. I like this map alot. Very simple yet complex for some reason.
spinesheath
If you just push back the top ramps a little, and make the naturals more equal, you should be able to balance the ramps pretty well without inverteds.

I agree that this map could use some more expoes, maybe just add another small expansion in the area around the naturals, near the mapedge. Nothing big, so that t/p don't gain much from it, but can put a hatch there that it would normally place elsewhere. A few minerals + a 500 gas geysir maybe. Dunno, pretty much into the blue...

Design is great, just those lone geysirs are a little weird ;)

Oh, maybe you might want to open up the entrance to the natural a little. As a zerg, you probably won't sunk up at that entrance, but rather a terran will camp exactly at that spot. I haven't played it, but I assume that I as a zerg would prefer it to be more open at that spot... Especially with ling-heavy gameplay in early game.
flothefreak
edited the map to your suggestions. the additional mini-expo has 3x500 mins and 1x500gas. plus, it is blocked by a neutral DT. it shall help zerg a little bit, because z can expand fastest there now.
spinesheath
neutral DT :) Finally put to use :)
DeSade
I liked this map from the beginning.
And now it got really classy. Great work!!
No more expos plz (maybe even remove some gas)
Testbug
yup, southern (purple and blue) nat don't protect the choke as well.

if zerg normal FE terran has a lot of minerals to build more marines for the fast marines/ fast bunkers, will hace a lot of minerals like proxy 3rax.

and protoss for 3 gateways and 3 zlealots at the same time. i know zeeg will have the same money to zlings, sunken, etc.

but protoss zealot rush will be too powerfull, and protoss will get the double gass expo while zerg is still struggling for the natural.

terran can't buid factory! so protoss Fast Expo will be too powerfull too, like terran making marines and fast expo too, gass and factoruy won't be fas enought to counter all that dragoons, reaver drp, double dt drop, etc.

look, if a player loose the natural expo won't be able to get it back, oponent will get dragoons, lurker, etc.
and you only marines gaianst lurkers? vultures vs dragoons? zlings vs archons :D
remembers me to azalea that if you recive a big attack in the natutral, the other expo will be affected too, you will loose both expo if you can't counter a sneak attack
Testbug
what is that single gass in the unwalkable terrain? xD
LaO-Artanis
Awesome. How much gas do the geysers on the nats have? They both need to have at least more then zero, or protoss will get horribly owned by terran early game, which was figured out from playtesting on the original Lightning.
TvP generally plays out like this; Protoss sends a few zeals or cannon rush, terran fends off with marines, expands, gets gas, builds an academy and a factory and goes m&m/tank. Protoss will build goons and try to hold off until they get HT or reavers (which is where the dual gas nodes come into play).

ZvP plays pretty much the same as on Luna/Longinus, except FE is pretty much standard now, and the 2nd nat in the bases will be quite interesting, as well as the semi-islands in the center. ZvP's were quite entertaining on Lightning already, wonder how they'll be here.

ZvT Zerg will need a lot of sunks and early lurk tech to hold off the rines, unless T went FE, in which case zerg should try and get another main quickly. It will all depend on Z's ability to react to what Terran does in this mu, and the micro of the terran.

That's basically what I concluded from Lightning, but the gameplay and design seems to be better on this map. Well done.
maximumdan
yeah looks great especially the mains. something about their shape and lack of inverts looks awesome.

as for how it will play, i think it might favor zerg as they will be the first to expand and get gas. i'm sure you could look a lot deeper into it than that though.
Nightmarjoo
Yes the lack of positional balance is almost orgasmic.

bog almost everyone FEs nowadays, and with gas not being in the main a 9pool is not effective (no fast speed), so you can safely FE all the time = gas just as fast if not faster.

...late game will be a bitch with there being so little gas on the map, you might have to use the two random cliff geysers via dropship lol.
flothefreak
@all the haters and whiners:

how can you tell a single tactic will own a matchup?
"terran can't buid factory! so protoss Fast Expo will be too powerfull too, like terran making marines and fast expo too, gass and factoruy won't be fas enought to counter all that dragoons, reaver drp, double dt drop, etc."

why should gas not be fast enough to counter all that reaver dt drop? where do you conclude that??? how do you even have a clue of timing on this map?

"but protoss zealot rush will be too powerfull, and protoss will get the double gass expo while zerg is still struggling for the natural."

how can you tell the timing and that it will work? zealot rush is NOT so overwhelming when zerg knows or suspects it, like on this map. and it is quite ridiculos to say that protoss will be able to hardcore rush AND building a nexus + 2 geysers + send 6probes gasmining at the same time.

i could also invent weird scenarios. my best shot is this:
terran wont get the natural at all because no tanks, and then protoss goes fast carrier, carrier>marines and GG.

all of you whiners, you havent played the map, and you probably dont have the insight and skill to judge balance on a map like this without playing it. you dont know the timing and game mechanics of such a map. how should you? it has never been done before. so you cant tell anything for sure, you can only be afraid of some weird strats made up in your minds...
it is nothing like a standardmap with obvious imbalances you can tell easily.



/edit
natural gases: 1x1000, 1x5000
side expos: 5x3500 mins, 4x1000mins, 2 empty gases
inbase miniexpos: 3x500mins, 1x500gas
concerning the tightness of the natural: i placed a large rock doodad on bottom position which makes defending easier.
modified by flothefreak
flothefreak
oh, nightmarjoo...
you sound exactly like the Angband haters.
Nightmarjoo
:( how so? I don't like positional imbalance, and I know you could correct it no problem. dan said something about it favouring zerg, and I didn't think so, so I explained part of why I believe that to be wrong =/ Then I mentioned my concern about there being little gas; no I haven't played it, but I don't see why it's not a valid concern =/ I don't see any racial imbalance in the map right now, but I see some positional imbalance which could hurt gameplay, and some possible awkwardness of there being little gas for lategame, all it takes is a simple game or two and you saying nah the gas is fine and I'm convinced.
flothefreak
there is gas almost everywhere actually -.-#
the pos. imbalance isnt that hard, when you look closely you can see a huge rock doodad tightening the path. and no, 100% pos. balance is not easy, i tried around a while when pimping the map. remember bottom choke must not be too weird for unit movement.
Nightmarjoo
something wrong with an inverted ramp?
And there isn't much gas, the values are mostly low on most of the geysers =/
flothefreak
yap, there is no decent inverted ramp. i could only do custom ramps with crushed rock...that isnt the best solution either,
Nightmarjoo
avatar had nice ramps I thought
flothefreak
avatar has buildable ramps which dont posess the same settings, so you cant use them as mainbase ramps. it would create pos. imbalance as well.
Nightmarjoo
ah; I'm sure you could fix it though somehow =/
Invent the best twilight inverts ever!
Alumni
hmm although there's positional imbalance from not using the inverted ramps, i like this alot because it's a nice pimpage and all done with normal ramps! oh and the neutral DT finally being implemented in a map is pretty cool as well :)

the inverteds that exist right now for this tileset are just not very pretty.
Nightmarjoo
imo the dt does nothing but hurt protoss, is that the intention?
AbYsSaL
T is fucked w/o gas
flothefreak
so terran is fucked, zerg is fucked and only protoss is strong on this map. but as i hurt only protoss with a neutral DT, we have balance despite hardcore theorycraft! yay!
Nightmarjoo
lol I guess you proved balance :D^^
flothefreak
update to finally tape nightmarjoos mouth who was always annoying me about this small natural imbalance...
Crackling
Your comment
Crackling
:>
Prezes83
Nice idea with adding New Chaos Factor pic=]
flothefreak
wtf? now THAT is weird
Crackling
it cant be balanced sorry :(
tvp t cant go fe without gas for tanks or mines...
and zvz with ling only... no thats weird
flothefreak
oops had forgotten to give credit, sorry

crackling. please. this is stupid surface theorycraft. terran can go mm here, which isnt destroyed by ht/rvr/dt/lurk/mut so fast.
zvz will be lingmicro or FE, that is true :o
Crackling
yessssssssss mm without gas :X and mm vs p :D:D:D
i hope it was a joke, u r a good map at all (i think :) )

p can even go 2gate vs a terran forcing him to stay inside his base and after setting 3 cannons at terrans nat...
gogo lets pvt i promiss playing mouse only :d
modified by Crackling
flothefreak
marines>zealots, micro provided. why is the counter to a mm rush in PvT 3gate goons but not 2gate zeals?
Crackling
MM = MARINES AND MEDICS

a medic costs 50 minerals and 25 gas
so u need your FE
godamn -_- when i go 2 gates and u wanna go mm later you need to go 2 raxx, but i can easy put some cans blocking your before u have enough to come out -_-
omfg flo stop kidding me...
and the counter to mm ISNT 3 gate goons...
zomg r u playing vs comps?
have u ever played bwcl or iccup? dont think so :/

the idea behind 2 gates is to keep you inside your base, not to kill you. on a normal map a 2 gate rush is crap vs terran, cause he acn defend it with wall-in and one marine and after the p will be farly behind... but without gas you cant do anything!
(quote)marines>zealots, micro provided(quote) of course u gonna kill my 5 zealots (i think i would get that much before getting cans at terrans nat) with your 8-9 rines -_-
theres no sence in microing rines vs zealot without stim cause they have the same speed, its not like with vults where u use hit and run.
Crackling
and even if u r so fucking amazing and doing something like 3 raxx rines only and was able to break threw my zealots and my cans u r forced to continue making mm >.<
but as u might know mm suck vs ht,goons and reavers -_-
flothefreak
cool, then you have 1forge, 3cannons, 2gates, but enough zealots to make enough pressure to keep me from expanding? cool. medics are so cheap in gas, you can just build a ref. below and send 4 workers gather and you'll have enough gas for a medic quickly.

besides, micro rinesvszeals is no vultvszealmicro. have you never played some micromaps?

and 3gate goon IS the fastest counter to mm. ever fought rangegoons with marines? no chance. ht/dt/cannon/rvr are more effective but also very expansive in money and time, so against a hardcore mm pressure, you'll do 3gategoons or stick to 2gategoons with choke.
Crackling
... i'm speakless... noob -_-

"theres no sence in microing rines vs zealot without stim cause they have the same speed, its NOT like with vults where u use hit and run."
- "besides, micro rinesvszeals is no vultvszealmicro. "
hm i said the same, no?

i dont wanna make pressure i'll just let those zealots near your choke -_-
the cannons will be placed here (red line) (its at YOUR base not at mine)
Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

as u can see you dont have any possibilty to take a gas or an expo and going with rines vs cans is a suicide massacre :)
you will need at least 15 rines to kill 3 cans (main reason is that u dont have range and stim so half of your rines will die even before they shoot) and i still can keep adding more

thats a bit offtopic right now, because on your map there never be a situation like this but i write it to show how noob you are :)

yes 3 gate rangegoons is the fastest counter but a bad one, because t will get a m&m force big enough to kill your goons very fast, best idea vs mm is teching to ht or reaver.

PS: i dont wanted to flame u but u made me quite angry >.<
this concept jsut doesnt work, u tried something new but it won't work -_-


modified by Crackling
spinesheath
Well, unless you know to expect cans. Put an SCV at your choke (lowground one) and keep track of any probes coming (don't only follow the first one). And then you might have to waste some money on fending off those cans before they warp in.
And don't tell me that's not possible - if it was impossible, I would go win every game that way, the only difference to a "normal" map would be that the cans are placed further off your main, so you have to use an additional scouting SCV and react faster because of the longer distance.

I don't say that this makes the map balanced or whatsoever, but it's not like it could not work at all.
Testbug
crackling tries to hit+run 1 marine vs 1 zlot
you get 3 marines at the time of 1 zlot (because of the pylon?) you get 2 marines at the cost of 1 zlot.

2 marines shoots.
the zealot tries to get a marine.
so you move THAT marine who runs at the same speed of the zealot (yes, you can't hit+run like if you were usin hydras, but the other marine is still atacking.) SCVs are 60 and can be repaired.
no way to kill scvs+rines using zlots.
Crackling
OMG I SAID THAT ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO HIN AND RUN 1 MARINE VS 1 ZEALOT -____-;;

mhhhhhhhhh, i gonna try to epxplain it again with a BUILD ORDER:

8 pylon probe goes scout
10 gate
12 gate
14-15 zealot, pylon asap
17 2 zealots, pylon asap

having 3 zealots move out to terrans choke,set gates rally to terrans choke, take also a probe (if your scoutprobe isnt dead u dont need to take a new one)

get 2 more zealots and a forge at 24-25 supply

when arriving at terrans choke (stay where red line is) camp there and get a pylon there
keep getting zealots

when pylon is ready make 3 cannons

chill

dont try telling me that u would have enough marines to take out my 3 zealots (after a bit more time 5 and than 3 cans) even if u go 7 raxx 9 depot 11 raxx -_-

IF U STILL DONT TRUST ME GO GAME I WILL SHOW IT TO U
Testbug
no gass = no medic, no range.
must terran build a bunker near the gass to protect both, gass and choke? so zlots won't do that.

but with no gass, you can't against photon cannons
Crackling
jesus yes u got it :x
flothefreak
tesbug got what i talked of concerning rineVSzeal micro.

you got 5 zeals, okay. dont you think scv+rine can kill 5 zeals? with testbugs calculation, it's 15 rines+let's say 6 scvs. you dont kill that with 5 zeals, and thus you wont get up those cannons. if protoss gets those cannons up, the game is lost - but so it is on every map -.-
and why the hell should the terran let you stay at the red line and camp in his main when he's going for a mm force followed by expo? he's more likely to do something with such a rush/pressure army than to wait for his death.
no decent terran will wait for your cannons to come up.

besides, you can build 2 raxes at your chokepoint to make the entrance quite small, to make zealot way to your marines much longer (getting more shots before they reach marines) and with a 3rd you could even close it down so there are only 2 small paths between raxes for your zeals.

i wont go on theorycrafting, because that's so useless on this site. you wont ever consider anything else working than the scenario in your mind, where a mm terran will have no chance against your silly overwhelming 3 zealots and will just stay up the ramp with 15+rines, waiting for you to build up cannons; warping in unattackable and heavily defended by 5 zealots, a force no marines can ever face.

so think whatever you want, you're fucking theorycraft isnt my problem. artanis tested this concept with progamers; some of the games can be found on the original map (4)Lightning, featuring BW-Mireille, CDS)Predy and others.
i especially recommend the PvT between the two named (although your overwhelming-cant-be-stopped-at-any-case-by-the-terran 2gate-zeal-BO was too clever for a progamer's first idea), as it shows a deadly 2zealot1probe force and how it reacts to 5, i repeat in words, FIVE marines.

so i may the fucking little noob that is not enlightened to your high degree of broodwar theorycrafting, but go ahead and state your mind to fucking progamers. as your approach to it is the only one possible and viable, they will have to surrender. as you cant fail after your explanations, wisdom and absolute truth will be with you.
and that's the last fucking thing i'll say to this.
modified by flothefreak
ptar
Play this map and upload the replays. Better then your therorycrafting and it's a proof of how the gameplay proceed.
Testbug
can't m&m without gass flo
flothefreak
replace mm with rine, i fell into mm as abbreviation when writing, sorry. besides, you could make a refinery down there to mine with a LONG distance, as 1-2medics are only 25-50 gas
Nightmarjoo
Since I don't tvp often I don't know how the timing will work on this, but it is possible that the game will go the way they're saying flo. Basicly I think t should 14cc with a couple bunks. This strat is terrible when protoss is getting his goons with range, but he won't have them yet because he won't have gas yet. That combined with a little scouting, your nat isn't that big, would stop any cannoning, and if p tried to cannon you, they'd be wasting minerals. But like I said, idk tvp timing at all, so this is theory crafting entirely for me =/ I'm free for games now, my chinese thing is only on wednesdays for four more weeks, so every day but tuesday I should have time for games, unless I do get a job with unfortunate hours.
Crackling
thunderbolt gonna be played today

Strelok vs Mamon

:D:D::D LOL :D

http://www.sc.gosugamers.net
flothefreak
with videostream OMG YEAAAAAH
Nightmarjoo
Thanks Crackling, missed that.

http://sc.gosugamers.net/gosubet/17251

It's White-Ra vs Mamon. Mamon ez'd Dreivan the other day, the first map was Nasty's ReversePA, and now he's at it again on Thunderbolt. Is this Artanis/Nasty's doing? Pretty gosu :)
Crackling
arrr yes not strelok, but white-ra
the only 2 ukrain players i know :D
Nightmarjoo
Mamon didn't show, the game didn't happen, :(
flothefreak
there was white-ra vs whistler instead, but it was a quite straight 2gate rush from ra beating the zerg.
spinesheath
Ya, that was a lame game. The rest was better, but a 4-1 whistler > white ra came unexpectedly... Not that whistler was that good; white ra was playing badly...
NastyMarine
credit for maps in gg.net events goes here X

:)
ProTosS4EveR

modified by ProTosS4EveR
Rye
No gas at main? Wha...?
Lancet
Yeah, and the second expo has a DT block, cool huh? LOL!

: ^ )
testbug
never knew 2nd expo had DT block :S
isn't zerg too strong with 3 gass?
Replays


--nastymarine, flothefreak vs ptar, alter.ego(1on1, 1.15)
--MYM.White-Ra vs MgZ)WhistleR(1on1, 1.15)
--PsychoTemplar vs MuShuPork(1on1, 1.15)

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