You can rate the map here. Chose a grade between 10 (best) and 0 (worst).
|guess who pimped this map/helped me :)|
|I think Testbug pimped this map. ;)|
Can't say anything to the gameplay, have to play it first.
|still seems quite tight, but the paths to surround/avoid the enemy seem more effective now. very cool idea with the minonly float block, well done, creatively. the expansion layout in the corners will need to show if they are wisely placed, though. |
i like the center changes, it really makes more sense now.
overall, the map had style, and has now much more due to the structure changes, good job whoever helped you pimping.
|I added a GMCS; remove that skeleton. In this place, non-walkable doodads will be a real pain. |
Also, the ramp to the left of the bottom-right expo needs some work.
modified by spinesheath
|yeah, testbug pimped it... No1 else makes this ugly ramps :D|
|my "pimper" got another version of this map, the current had got some changes from me but he dislike them :D |
look at original map and tell me whats better :D
modified by Crackling
|ah and on this version the minerals blocking choke at 12 and 6 are stacked and have got like 99999x1 |
so u will never mine ALL of them u just can use it for hopping threw with workers... this was never used before and seems beeing very exciting :D
|This map is hard to play. The expo layout is ok, and testbug's decoration looks nice, but it's just so tight and unflankable, especially because of the narrow middle path. It's like baekdu, only less open. For zerg atleast most of his units can use the middle path, but for protoss and terran whose main attack units don't fit, and for zerg's tech units, it's just really awkward and hard to move around. Also the nat is pretty hard to defend from muta, no way to defend behind the minerals.|
The neutrals/mineral walls played no part in my game. I think there's way too much neutral/mineral wall stuff going on, it makes the map even more awkward by fucking pathing in the ear.
|-edited minerals at backdoor expo|
-removed some bugs
-using 999x1 mineral thing
mh it might seem to be tight, but thats only cause u r looking at the middle :p
zerg using all those ways and backdoorexpo-entrance (when minerals mined) or 2. entrance blocked with xelnagatemple...your just mustn concentrate at the middle of the map, but using other ways.
this kind of play will afford creativity and make macro less important than on boring maps like luna where everything happens in the middle and there arent any important spots to take or using high-ground advantage or whatever...
if u still think that its to tight what should be edited?
and what aboout 3 gases? do u think they are too much?
|i think it is okay. slightly tighter than normal maps, but i can imagine that it's working. just test it. nightmarjoo is right about the too many blockades and barriers|
|-update removed backdoor gas (z is to strong otherwise)|
|lovely map. the layout and detail is very sexy. May be too tight for PvT but idk.|
|In the game I played, I was really confused as to where expos were and so it was hard for me to figure out where I could pressure PvZ.|
However, I think that was due to simply not having studied the map long enough. I glanced at it for about 20 seconds, and decided to just play, which was my downfall. I'd love to play more games on this map, however.
|YOUR MAP HAS BEEN PIMPED!|
|Excellent work, Testbug.|
|wowowo nightmarjoo's replays was sexy (you abuser, playing with that protoss, why don't you fight with som1 with your own calibre?) but that was the map Clacking modified, he changed the mineral formation.|
now you can take the backdoor nighmarjoo :)
and the movement at the north highground where the game was centred is already fixed, i modified the ramps befor watchjing the replay.
i tought NW and SE where too tight, but because no1 sayd anithing about that, i'll keep it.
now everybody watch nighrmarjoos replay! the center was really funny! looks better than peaks of baekdu, nice idea Craclking!
|A guys not aloud to have a bad day? ;P Manner please.|
|lol Testbug; nothing suggests Mayhem isn't at my calibur, one game on a map we don't know very well doesn't say too much about skill, and I only won because I got lucky with my mutas early on anyway... :)|
|no1 comments the map :(|
well, i'll do it.
no1 can build a factory+machine shop in the ruins minonly. there is no space for machine shop, and te place where a command center+ComSat mus be is blocked by a 24 mineral field.
you can push your workers by the 1 mineral 500fields so now will gather that.
it's only for workers to be pushed.
the gay things like temple and prisions are for leave that part of the map.
or don't use it.
game is cented i the middle high/low baekdu thing that has shown to be funny enought.
dark templars can't pass the sin 815 ramp (but my ramp's better than sin 815's)
i found no error that hurt movement/gameplays.
need some feedback please
and nightmarjoo, that protoss saved about 1 million minerals. i don't know who he is but maybe he played bad because of the map.
|"and nightmarjoo, that protoss saved about 1 million minerals. i don't know who he is but maybe he played bad because of the map."|
It was the first game of the day and his mutas did an unexpected large amount of damage. That sort of threw me off, so my gates were late. Not to mention I've never played sin peaks, so I'm not used to all this manual movement, which used up concentration I'd normally spend on macro. Coupled with bad storming I was overwhelmed for pretty much of the game. Not to mention losing my dt from bad micro, when it could have slowed down his expo.
Which brings me to one point of the map. Because a Protoss army has to go up, down, around, etc. The distances are unexpectedly long, which makes it hard for aggressive players like me to apply pressure, especially when we're completely lost because we only glanced at the map before, and we've forgotten where everything is in the midst of trying to keep our units alive. Shit happens, I'm sorry. I'd love to play some more games, but unfortunately no one is ever in the fucking channel to play.
PS: Next time you want to comment on how bad a player is in a replay, don't. It's for this reason many people don't post their replays, because they're afraid of pricks criticising them, so they only want to release a replay if they know they did really well.
|i did not know it ws you, and i sayd you playd bad becaude you don't know the map.|
don't worry, you are 200 times better than me :(
i did not say you are bad.
i sayd the protoss couldn't play good because of the map.
looks like the zetrg knew the map a lot because he's hydralisk where always waitong for you in the other side, he attacked by yout back, etc.
that's why i named nightmarjoo as "abuser" because the replay looks like he perfectly knew the map.
the map is finished now.
i would like you to test it.
i'll criticising Myhem, please, sorry :(
maybe we can play some friendly games
1)the minral bloking the island was fucking 24!
i reduced it to 16, but..
will it be better 2 stacked 0value?
2)the 0min blocks in the ramps are noe EXTREMELY EASY to push. it was very hard with only 1 min field.
now you can even buid a plon and push your probr (that's what Crackling wanted in the original version)
3)there is only 1 Xel Naga Temple in the altrnative route (it was double Xel naga i copied from HH but this map doesn't needs 2 of them)
4)ramps to 12 and 6 multies are now wider.
Crakling and his guys tested a the map a lot and told me that those ramps MUST be some wider. so now they are double sized.
5)the Peals of Baekdu high groun in fron of the natural expo is enemy entrance is now wider.
it was your entrance x3 and enemy's was normal sized (the path to the center was x1/2)
now enemy's entrance is x2.
(i don't know why they wanted this ramp to be wider, but i think normal sized enemy ramp was ok for your own x3 ramp)
6)now you can build pylon + photon cannons in the island by jumping your rpobes. terran was unbuildable because of the rocky ground.
now you can cannon rush oponent's backdoor.
7)some copy/opaste bugs as doodads not properly placed. added some rocky ground, trees (decoration things)
did i missed something Crackling?
well, it'll be Final Version now!!! :D
thanks for testing! i love you
modified by Testbug
|mh i was thinking about moving the backdoorgas to the main so u would have a 2gas main...|
problem is that t/p in tvz and pvz have to take 1. the frontdoor nat but its without gas ;o
no making mineralblock at mineralonly 2x0 value doesnt make any sence cause u added it so terran wont be able to make a factory there :p
mining a field with 0 they wont get their mineralthing (u know what i mean xd) and can continue mining...
|wow 3 posts ;D;D|
|i think it must be 24 because with 16 you can easy push 2 SCVs, gather those 16 and build a factory with one of'em.|
THE GASS IS OK i don't know what are you talking about. protoss and terran can go to the backdoor and defend the ramp.
zerg can use it's normal 3hatch build
|still some told me that thisis a zerg friendly map cause all expos have very few mineral amount (~6)|
|The rocky ground is very stylish i love it. It is the first time i see vertical ramps, looks good on the picture, but i don't know if it looks fine on SCMDraft, but if testbug made it, it must be decent.|
|i created that ramp in my old old old map "(3)The Triskalion|
|hm can someone make a obs version of this plz?|
triggeredit in scmdraft doesnt work or i am to dumb oO
|Name force 1 Players force 2 observers, then:|
Command("Current Player", "Any unit", At most, 0);
Command("Non Allied Victory Players", "Any unit", At most, 0);
Elapsed Time(At least, 0);
Set Resources("Current Player", Set To, 50, ore);
Run AI Script("+Vi0");
Run AI Script("+Vi1");
Run AI Script("+Vi2");
Run AI Script("+Vi3");
copy paste the above into trigedit in scmdraft, after you name the forces. That should work.
|i dont know why but pasting things in trigedit dont save after closing it oO|
thats what i meant above -.-
Command("Current Player", "Any unit", At most, 0);
not any unit but "building" :P
|you need to check for bugs (check-button). having done that, you can save it.|
i'd need the trigedit plugin btw, can someone upload it to the filebase?
|Aren't the ruins expo too tight to make defence?|
|u can place ~3 cans there|
this should avoid turtling a bit...
and this expo is quite secure its near to your main and your nat so its should be np defending it with units fast
|~~ uploaded obs-version ~~|
thx flo and nightmarjoo :)
|oh thank you!|
Aren't the ruins expo too tight to make defence?
yeah, nydus canals
modified by Testbug
|You need to fix pathfinding errors in the middle. The small ramps get units like tanks, vults, DTs, goons and the likes stuck trying to go under it.|
You have to move them manually, and even then it's difficult...
|have u ever played peaks of baekdu?|
|have you ever played Loki?|
|have you ever played Blitz?|
|guy got owned >.<|
|Yes I've played them all, and none of them have pathfinding errors as bad as the ones in the map. Of course, we can all stick to all our buddies and ignore the new guy because his opinion doesn't matter and he doesn't know shit about mapping despite having been making melees for 3 years.|
Owned? That's nice, congratulations, your e-penis is that much bigger.
modified by Moebius
|yes its bigger now =)|
|its a map only for gosus sorry ;P|
|So now you call me a noob, huh? Fine, don't take my advice and don't fix the problem. See if I care.|
|shut up Crackling :S xD|
look moebius, we were only kidding Crackling, not you! i dod not knew what were they talking about.
and units in Loki and Blitz-X (specially blitz-X) have that problem.
you can move'em manualli allright?
i don't think i will need to fix anything.
|oh thank you spinesheath.|
i love you
|nah, that sucks. if you can correct that problem, DO it for gods sake. every pathing issue sucks. at blitz or 815, it's a basic part of the concept, which makes it less striking. but on this map it sucks really ass, because it's a standard-built map from it's concept and basic layout. and it is SO easily fixable, just make normal ramps and all, players, mappers, testers, critics are fine with it.|
you have a problem with tightness anyway, so this is necessary.
|I was only joking Moebius. Your suggestions are welcome to every map. Crackling sometimes talk shit.:) |
@Testbug: I think you should add normal ramps, like flo said. Many people i played aginst said, that this path sucks and i think so too. It's hard to get around it, if you don't know the map that well.
|I know you guys were just having fun, it was Crackling who pushed my button.|
You simply need to make the small ramps in the middle normal sized or possibly larger. Easy fix and you don't lose anything from doing it.
|which is what i said :o|
|And which is what I also said! :o|
|i was also joking ;D|
yes maybe fix it, i dunno :p
and no, theres no gas issue cause even your nat gaser has 2,5k :o
|hm testbug u changed those ramps which were edited shortly again?`why? :o|
|oh sorry, it was the old version.|
(the picture of the new version looks like shit but i'll correct it later. i have some exames today)
i just removed a unwalkable skeleton spinesheath pointed
|center ramps are wider now!!!!|
Corrected a bad copy/pasted ramp
Edited the map name in map description, had the ".scx" on it xD
any toher suggestions?
|moving backdoorgas and 1 mineralfield from backdoor to the main :o|
|uploaded 4 replays....|
Testbug vs Me
Crackling: 4 :D:D:D:D:D
Testbug: 0 xD :P :)
|oh testbug how did Crackling 4:0 you!|
Don't upload my terran reps T_T
oh i used terran 3 times??!!!
|OLOLOL testbug :o |
modified by Crackling
|i found some bugs in those test games.|
now i edited the ramps and so but the major mistake you can find i the reps was that 6 o'clock island mienral fiedls wasn't placed properly.
now i moved all the mineral fields so that player can max the mineral gathering.
the other problem was SE wide ramp from the 6 o'clock high ground.
it's ok now.
and all the ramps were the bwm.net (0)jungle ramp, now they are the korean baekdu and python ramps :S
i don't know what happns to the obs version when i update the map, i only upload the melee and the pic, but there is still an obs version :S
can you please copy the triggers again Crackling?
|mh in 2 weaks, yes xD|
can some1 else do it plzzzzzzzz? :)
|so thats what i would like to change,i havent done it but i am sure u gonna like it, but its allways better to ask before doing sth :) so plz post your oppinion about it, maybe testbug will also be ok with this changes :D|
1. moved the backdoorgas and 1 mineralfield to the main.
now it has 2x5000 gas and 9x1500
this should make the players dont ahve to play so defensly, and this makes 1-base play quite attractive (u know 1-base play means much micro, much pressure, much fun ;D)
2. changed value of backdoormineral to 4x1000, its still attractive and weak, like it should be
3.added one 1500mineralfield to those expo now its 7x1500 (i think the 3. gas should be an attractive expo, 6 mineralfields on like each expo are very z-favouring)
4. removed those blocking-tosstemple and minerals-on-ramp shit.
testgames showed that those way is just fucked up and dont used, those blocks make no scence at all -.-
while they r removed the pathing i much better now and the backdoorexpo and minsonly are much more open, no more fun for turtleboys :D
tell me what u like and what not, i think the changing of 12h+6h could be even called necsessery, those part of the map was dumb oO
testbug dont get angry with me :S
luv ya ^__^
|you can send me a pm about it; and i think double gass expo sux, you want double gass mains and double gass 12 and 6 high grounds?|
the island was closed so you can get your backdoor and it won't be vulnerable at the begining.
you can see your oponent breaking the cell prision, and you are using the backdoor only for fast gass, you will take the island very soon.
because the island is undefendable, 3 entrances to it will be a bad idea.
i found the map ok at it's current version, what's wrong with it exactly? (via PM)
|fix gas issue por favor|
|Copied/Pasted from motm 7 thread:|
Iron Flush's gameplay no longer is at all similar to that of Peaks of Baekdu. They shared at one point the narrow middle concept, but I believe that is now gone.
Iron flush is relatively narrow and tight, the result of having so many chokes and ramps. There are many areas which can result in poor pathing.
For zerg, the backdoor expo's pathing may be awkward, I can see it being messed up unless the rally is in the main, which would be inconvenient.
The xel naga backdoor is an area for possible pathing issues until it's cleared. Once it is cleared, only zerg imo will retain its full benefit of increased mobility, as z is very mobile for one, and two, protoss and terran will have builings in the way since it's their main.
The only open expo is the mineral only, whose entrances are all pathing nightmares, mineral walls, neutrals, oh my! The fact that every other expo is tight can result in pathing issues from lack of space in them, and can result in turtling.
The concept of an expo's minerals being vulnerable to attack from behind was imo poorly executed. Basicly, it can result in poor pathing until a hole is created in the wall, and still can have pathing issues even then for obviously having stuff built near it since it's an expo and since it's fairly tight.
The mains aren't all that big, personally I'm not t or p nor have I indepthly looked at it, so it might be ok, but probably is fairly tight later in the game, which can result in pathing issues (units colliding, buildings blocking, etc).
I don't think the map is truly a micro oriented map, imo it has a lot of things which encourage the opposite. For starters, there's a backdoor expo. Secondly, the gas is in the back but your main choke is guarded by a mineral only, making it imperative especially for zerg to take both relatively early on.
The expos are almost all tight, resulting in turtling being relatively easy. On the other hand, many expos are very vulnerable to harass. However, this imo just encourages turtling more. Best way to prevent harass is play very defensively, ie turtle the fuck up.
It seems to me that there are too many expos, or that the general expo layout of the map doesn't flatter its gameplay. What I mean is that the expos are clustered, making it easy to take one if you first take another, very macroish and turtley.
The middle, despite being awkward and tight from so many ramps, is still fairly flankable. Unfortunately, the same really can't be said about everywhere else in the map. But, aha! that nat is pretty open too! Well it is, but it's surprisingly linear even with having three external ground exits. So like, even if all of your backdoors are open (they won't be, btw), if something enters your general nat area, you're pretty much stuck and contained, a contain is pretty hard to throw off. The nat's layout and positioning is just really awkward and not fun for zerg, who is already 3hatching for his gas.
If you remove every single path blocker in the map, you still have a fairly unflankable map. Personally I find the NW and SE corner to be too unreachable.
There's a lot of gas in the map. There're two mineral onlys in the map. One is the nat, already imo poorly designed. The other is in the middle of paths, which would make it a convenient strategic position if there weren't so many gay blocked paths. Its only strategic position is guarding your backdoor expo, but the blocks already do a fairly good job of that, at the least delaying things for your timing to kick in =/
Since one expo guards another, some of the more vulnerable expos don't actually play their strategic purpose because you can guard them from another base by taking that one first.
The backdoor alone makes the map macroish. But its necessary to have the gas in a backdoor, because otherwise zerg would rape with such linear main2main pathing. Well, instead of correcting this with a macroey backdoor, perhaps the main2main pathing could be redesigned? Baekdu did this simply by making the middle path tight for big units. I wouldn't reccomend recopying that necessarily, but I think the middle could be redesigned for a better effect. Once that was solved, you'd have a more mobile map already, and no backdoor to worry about, and more room for main space, allowing for movement to be better; that just fixed half if not more than half the issues I just mentioned.
In Peaks of Baekdu, there is one single pathing issue. Just one, well in two places. That alone for me personally, and for many others as well, was a lot to cope with as players are used to having decent pathing in maps. Having so many more makes moving shit around complicated and frustrating. You certainly have to put more micro into the game, but not the kind of micro you necessarily want to encourage.
Might just be me but the highground expo in the north, near the nat in the middle, looks larger than the coresponding southern one.
Distances were longer in baekdu than here.
The 815 ramps in the middle probably did help in the earlier version, but they were still annoying.
I think I wrote more the first time I wrote this, now you can imagine my frustration with my internet being gay. Not to mention I probably spent an hour total looking at this map instead of studying my chinese for tomorow and getting sleep ._.
Hope that helps at all, too bad I waited until August to write that out ><
modified by Nightmarjoo
|hm i see your point to some extent|
what do you think about turning those little two lakes in the middle into highground, thus connecting the center highground to the gas expo highground to gain a large area/path? then make ramps at the spots i will mark in gmcs and delete the highground maze in the corners.
|i would like to remove at 12h+6h those blocking things.|
they are weird, destroy pathing and arent neccessery
|i roughly executed my suggestion (bottom right):|
highgrounds are connected; 2 ramps adding for mobility; highground maze in corners is deleted for open space; also i flipped the corner highground expo because i think blocking here is not necessary but disturbing; and i slightly moved the large inverted ramp near this neutral temple so it is farer away from the two new single ramps (the two ramp blocking minerals can go as well).
i think the map feels better without losing flair.
|well done flo, i like it :)|
what about the things i have marked?
someone others oppinion?
|k, now make testbug do it -____-""|
|crackling: if i remove that mineral fields, terran will be able to build a machine shop in the place you have the command center+comsat.|
flo: i don't want to change it but NW and SE are poorly exectued, i was trying to keep the original flush's concept.
can i redo 90% of the map when pimping it?
i'll do the changes because, yes, it is my map, but it wasn't the original not pimped flush concept.
but i did not find any problemas in the test games? i'll do it anyway, thanks for the feedback
|so when u will do it, testbug, my dear :9|
|i will start my "update" (see pic) of iron flush tomorrow i think, if testbug is okay with it as it is his map, too.|
|flothefreak sayd: |
"i will start my "update" of iron flush tomorrow i think, if testbug is okay with it as it is his map, too."
it's not my map too, it is only my map.(that's all)
i have done the whole map, crackling did nothing (his map is the original flush, but this map is mine ok?)
it says "guess who pimped this map/helped me" in the 1st post but i did not helped him, i have just redone the map. i just pimped it.
and yes flo, please help i can't fin how to fix it (i'll make an "pdate" version too ok? i'll send it to you and to Crackling via pm)
also crackling suggested to name it "royal flush" and i like it :)
i ws going to name it (2)My Iron Lung(n).scx lol (._.
|Well, odds are, I'll be disapointed by flo's final Silver Flush, and I'll make Gold Flush.|
Author will be Nightmarjoo/Testbug/Flothefreak (in no particular order), as when it's gone through me there will be nothing of Crackling's concept left, I bet, lol.
|Crackling had a concept? Looks an awful lot like Peaks of Baekdu.|
|And then ill make Toilet Flush, and you all will be forced to tears at the horror of it. XD|
i never wanted to be on authors list or sth :D
i completly dont care if i have done smth here or not, i comment about this map like about each other map in the map db
i dont care if the concept gets completly changed xD
and it looks like 2% of peaks of baekdu, dear moebius :)
its like python is lt without cliffs at ramps, islandexpos moved to other corners and mins onlys reduced to 2 -______-
everytime i said "i dont like this changes" wasnt like "i am the maker of this map, so this cahnges wont be done, because i judge about it", it was more like "i think that this map needs other changes to become better gameplaywise, but if everyone else thinks this changes are fine i'm also fine with it (democraty xD)
PS: besides dont u think this map is a great example of how teamwork could go :D
we got like 10 people having influence of how this map involved xD
modified by Crackling
|Yeah Crackling is cool and laid back, he doesn't mind or care about anything^^|
|I'M BACK!!! (i had some business trip)|
Royal flush already exist so i overwrite the old map ok? i read all your post and i'll do the decoration today allright ^^
i test my maps before uploading, i recommend you to download the map and save it in your map folder, then go to starcraft and pick zerg as your race, just do a fast pool to test the path.
|No, they don't move directly threw the holes, but if you take a huge group of zerglings and tell them to move in the middle, some will use the highground and some will go through those little holes.|
modified by Testbug
|It's the same thing in one of herb's map (i think it's him) and i will use it for a further map. ^_^|
|I could upload a replay too.|
|UPLOAD A REPLAY PLEASE!!!|
I TEST THIS LOT OF TIMES AND THEY NEVER PASS.
@Excalubur: yes, should i copy/paste the bottom right in the other 3???
ok ptar, i'm waiting for your replay
modified by Testbug
|I added the repaly. units move through the holes. Especially if you use big groups of units. I think if someone knows the trick and knows how to move the units correctly it's a big advantage.|
|OK PTAR, BUT IT IS VERY VERY HARD TO DO.|
THIS HOLES WON'T AFFECT GAMEPLAY OR PATH.
original iron flush had problems with dragoons.
small units MAY pass but this is not a problem.
i love you more and more each day ptar. thank you.
|^^ love ya too!|
Maybe some pros manage to do this trick every time with 1 or 2 zerglings. They will move alot faster from main to main.
|ok, i copy pasted bottom right passage so not even zerglings can use that path.|
also I EDITED THE MOVEMENT IN THE CENTER, SO UNITS PREFER TO USE THE PRINCIPAL WIDE RAMPS! IN THE MIDDLE :D
if your units get confused and use the xel naga, they can easy get look for an other wak and use the mains rap :D
i added a creep colony so zerg can defend the backdoor at NW and SE.
also i stardet doing some decoration in the rocky ground+dired mud and some doodads (rocks) you'll see.
i'll work on the ruins and jungle in the center after testing the map and reading nightmarjoos post.
then i can add some ruins doodads and trees :)
|Hm, ok. Here is my long list of concept warping suggestions purely for gameplay's sake. The issues I'll be addressing are for pvz, zvt, and tvp, racially. For just map mechanics, I'll be addressing certain awkwardnesses (imo).|
The problems I see are as follows: In pvz it looks very difficult to FE because of the nat shape. You could of course, take your backdoor, but its monetary value is too small to make fast expoing truly (imo) worth it. Not only that, a 2hatch hydra build would easily break through the 1500 hp neutral and have your probes being hydra'd, with a mineral wall, and 4000 hp of neutrals in the way of any kind of useful aid. If you're lucky, you might catch the hydras on their way home after raping your probes going back through the temple path -_-
Once middle game starts, pvz could be hard because there is no real 3rd base (imo). I mean an expo like the min only in longinus, or the gas expo in tau, or the min only in luna, etc.
You have a min only near your backdoor expo, but the shape of the paths heading to it along with the min wall of the backdoor and the neutral blocks make it awkward (imo). You can't very well remove the neutrals all-together because then the miners of your backdoor would be even more vulnerable. Even with those blocks removed the path from your nat to the min only is long and arduous. That expo is easier to get to for your enemy than for you; taking it is an inconvenience.
Pathing should be bad from the main to the min only, the min wall is in the way. Later in the game, when the minerals are gone, and the neutrals are gone, it will still be awkward to get to that expo. The temple path is very narrow. You then have a path for enemies to use to get in your main. The ruins make any adequete static defense impossible to make. Your main army would have to do quite a juggling act to get from one side of the map to another.
When I started this post the backdoor had 4 blocks, but testbug edited it and it now has 5. The problem with adding money to the backdoor is because 1. The workers are very vulnerable to attack from behind and it is difficult to come to their aid. 2. The money in that expo is pretty easy to get, it's a backdoor. If you create some really easy to grab money, you make the game more turtley. So, you want an expo which is both not too far, and not too easy to get. Something that's vulnerable, but also defendable at the same time.
The closest such expo is the corner expo, which has issues of its own. The backdoor is a bad idea. You can more easily get to your opponent's corner expo's backdoor than you can get to your own backdoor mineral only expo lol. Now, during this post testbug added a creep colony. 1. This only helps z, and hurts p. 2. You can kill any static d there relatively easily because the creep doesn't extend to the ramp. Also, the area around there is fairly tight, this means that any time static d buys zerg there doesn't help much because the zerg army upon arrival is unable to do anything effective because it cannot properly flank the enemy. 3. There's the main ramp, which is larger and easier to bring an army up, lol.
Imo, the highground expos in the middle are good expos. They're open, but have several nearby chokes by which they can be defended. They're a bit rich imo, but that's probably fine. The problem with these expos is that they just can't be a middle game expo. They're great late game expos, but are just too far from your nat to function as middle game bases.
The problem with zvt is the lack of (imo) an easily defended 3rd gas. In most (4)maps this is no problem because the mains have ramps or chokes which can be easily defended, and have a gas. This is ok for gameplay because 1. z can take it during middle game no problem. 2 lurkers on the ramp and no middle game army is getting up that ramp. 2. Any zerg who thinks 2 lurkers on his ramp will keep that expo for the game either is a retard, or is playing someone who really blows tvz. A lategame t army will likely have no trouble killing 2 lurkers on a ramp lol. Also, even during middle game, t can use a dropship to rape that expo. 2 lurks really can't even beat 7 marines with armour ups and 1 medic alone in the open. On a ramp and vs marines with insufficient armour they rape. Even mass sunks can only do so much late game, so the expo is not free. The base has a lot of room, so it is fine. Longinus has its double gas expos which function this way (the mains have larger chokes which lurks cannot perfectly defend).
This map, has no such thing.
Your gas is in your main, your backdoor, the corner expos, and the middle highground expos. I already explained the issues of both of these expos in pvz, it works the same way in zvt because they have the gas. Zerg is already delayed slightly by having his gas in his backdoor. I think most zergs will take their nat first, and backdoor with 3rd hatch. Depending on their bo and circumstances, this won't cause any balance issue causing delays I think. The many ramps will make lurkers strong, so a delay can't hurt to badly. The nat is pretty zerg friendly for sunk placement imo, not having yet played the map. I don't remember why I brought this up, but whatever.
The other glaring issue I see in zvt is the total complete lack of any decent ovy positions on the entire map. This is worse than Python 1.1 in that respect, lol. Thanks to the xel naga path (which has its issues) the nat really can't be edited at all to create even one good spot.
The Xel Naga path really doesn't work in this version. 1. Early/middle game it just creates a nice place behind the minerals where some cheap shots at the nat miners by most (I think) ranged units can get in. 2. Later on, when the firepower to destroy 5000 hp in a timely manner exists, it's too late to do any damage via that path. That path is so close to your nat and the corner expo (where your army likely will be near), if you can't prevent that amount of firepower from getting to that xel naga (right behind your nat, lol), you have bigger issues to worry about.
Now, since that neutral blocked path into the main is useless, with the only uses of the path being nat cheap shots early-middle game, let's consider possible uses of the player who has that main. The only way that path could be used by the player is as an alternate path for speed, or for a containment flank. That nat is not (imo) very contain friendly at all. Also, the xel naga path is tight, so it's hard to bring too big of an army through. Secondly, that path just leads to the nat still, it's not going to do you much good, and won't really save you any time. This neutral path is useless and only causes problems (king of like your mom).
tvp time. If I'm terran, I can just turtle with my backdoor and nat pretty easily. Now, I want to push. Usually when t pushes, he wants to take an expo along the way. Preferably one he can defend while pushing, ie one that is along the path to the enemy. There really isn't any such expo =/ Kind of the same issue I mentioned before with pvz, and zvt. The closest thing there is to such a thing is the highground middle expos. These are kind of far, and it'd be sort of fruitless and futile and in vain (there's a phrase that means something like, useless in a sense that does more harm than good, but I'm tired and can't remember it, so I'm going to list synonyms of words for a bit ._.), ineffectual, whatever. You wouldn't normally push that way. It'd be going out of your way. The purpose of a push is to be fairly direct and to apply pressure and stuff. You're not doing this if you're backing off, or heading in another direction to get an expo. The paths and flank system would make it impossible to hold that expo via a first or even second push while executing any form of effective push. If you have to leave your entire army along the path from your nat to the expo, you're turtling, not pushing. This is bad.
Testbug had suggested to me that he could move the highground expos closer to the corner expos, 12 to 10, 6 to 4. The nice thing about these expos is that it's kind of ambiguous as to who "owns" each expo. As it is, the map is fairly flexible in its expo patterns, but it needs a little less flexibility. But, those highground middle expos are fine as they are. In "less flexibility" I just mean, there needs to be a stable 3rd base. As it is, there is no room for such an expo. Any changes would have to be fairly drastic for moving stuff around.
Other awkward aspects of the map now. The center is very flankable and encouraging to mobility, and at the same time rather tight and unflankable. There are many paths, ramps, and chokes. This means the mobile races will have a ball running around the map. But, there are no terrible open places. If terran has a big army of tanks and vultures (and maybe goliaths), and he's moving through the middle (on one of the side ramps), there isn't much protoss can do. Zealots on ground will be like spears breaking onto a shield, or a herd of antelope crashing into the wall of a deadend. Dropped zlots/dts probably won't cause too much damage of splash, since t can place mines on the ramps, back up, and siege. They might draw some tank fire, but nothing critical, no mines taking out 6 tanks (assuming the terra is not retarded). There really isn't the gas for an effective early switch to arb or carrier.
To make the map more flankable, you'd need to make a larger plain, a larger area of fewer chokes. The problem is in how the space of the map was executed and chokes were implemented. The middle also creates some awkward pathing, and long distances. The middle's problems are what make it hard to place any reasonable 3rd expo, because in doing so you'd only tighten some part of the middle which oughtn't be tightened.
The mains are still kind of awkward, and mostly imo are such because of the xel naga path and the backdoor. When placing depots, you usually look for a place not in the way of anything, and not too vulnerable. Often that place is on the side of the minerals opposite from the entrance. You can't do this in bulk on this map because of the backdoor ramp. You probably don't want to put them directly above the backdoor, in case you have to cliff a drop on that expo, or something. You wouldn't place them on the edge of the main facing the map, because they could be hit easily by ranged units. You don't want to place them in media res in your main, because your unit producing buildings will be there, and you'll want a certain potential for access and mobility should you need to use the backdoor path later on. There's room, but no perfect place. There also isn't really a lot of building room across the map either. Losing your main is probably a good complement to losing the game, even for zerg.
I'll give my suggestions later. I have a lot to address, and I'm already losing sleep for posting this. Like, a 3 hour difference lol.
|lol I have typos, that's how tired I was :( I usually have none^^|
|I will read it tonight. xD|
|what about switching protos temple with xel naga temple. so the wide ramp behind the nat will be more used.|
and 2hatch hydra won't kill the protos temple that fast and get your probes.
i mean, making the ruins+trees 'island' protected by xel nagas will give you some more time.
also the backdoor can have only 500 minerals or 1k
there are overlord spots:
behing the backdoor you can see if they expand or what tey're building, od in the water.
also behind the 12 and 6 highgrounds.
and at the high temple in the corners.
now, i can find a place to the 3rd expo: the water at 10 and 4, i can cut some space of the corner expos to place a low ground expo so you can protect the wide ramp behind your nat...
also it can add a ovie spot behind nat.
you remember the small paths where ptar and Excalibur found a zergling path?
i can remove that walls and place some neutral buildings instead. so protoss can kill this to waeaken terran in late game.
or corner expos can be double 2500 geysed, so protoss can go arbiters?
|You won't edit the high ruins in the middle :( They are looking so plain. Pls edit them. :)|
|maybe still make the backdoor a full expo?|
loki is also working this way, its balanced because of some tightness and this map is also tight on most places.
or add gas to the min-only nat?
|yes ptar, i'll do decoration when i have finished the structure. i won't like to have to redo a docorated part :(|
i'll make the ruins and jungle more natural and place some doodads :)
i'll work with nightmarjoo this weak i think :S
thank you :)
|Ok, I think if I was editing this, I would start by messing with the main, nat, backdoor, and min only area first. The following are things I would do and reccomend, but not necessarily have to be done.|
Remove the xel nagas and their paths. Fill in that path. Remove the backdoor expo entirely. Move the main down to fill in the new space. Remove the mineral only (backdoor). Remove all neutrals on the map. Reshape the nat and add a geyser. Reshape the main to work with the new nat, and so there's room to place a mineral only along the side of the main. When shaping the nats, keep in mind to improve pvz FEability. The area where the old min only was can be reshaped to just be a path, or maybe you can add something else there like a small expo or something. It'd be a nice 4th expo, like the min only in tau.
Next, I'd work on the corner expos. Remove the backdoor ramp and path entirely. This allows more room where the temple currently is, to allow that path to be useful for mobility and flanks and alternate paths, etc. Remove the temple stuff behind the corner expo. Back up the expo closer the corner. Replace the ramp with a normal or normal inverted ramp. You want the expo to be fairly open, so modify the formation as you see fit. You said you wanted to make it double gas, consider how large the double expos are in longinus, that will be a good model.
The middle needs some work, but I'm not entirely sure on what I'd do to it. I think a good start is to make the very center highground and kill those ramps. Then add ramps double or triple size-normal leading from the middle highground to the lowground. This would be kind of tight if you did it now, but the modified map would not have the main sticking out that far, because 1. You moved the main back, and 2. you opened that side for the min only.
Maybe add some highground near the water in the middle just to add more to the middle. You now have a more direct path from nat to nat, making the distances shorter. Especially if you backed up the nat a bit when you reshaped it, this won't be a problem at all I think.
Now, after all those drastic changes, what do you have? You have a stable expo layout both encouraging use of the middle and the sides, without any expos too close or too far. You have no pathing issues at all. You have a very building friendly main without any backdoors to worry about. You have every part of the map used without some being favoured, necessarily or inherently. You have a more flank friendly middle, but at the same time allow both the mobile and non-mobile races to use the middle because of the expo layout. pvz becomes fine because you have a stable 3rd base, a nat FEable, and no cheeseable backdoor paths. zvt is fine because somewhere amid all those changes you added at least one ovy spot ;) Also, you have a 3rd gas expo which is not too close nor too far, and one that is vulnerable to drops because of its openness, but easily definsible by a normal sized ramp. tvp is fine because you have a 3rd expo to push along, and from there you have expo flexibility. pvt is still fine because the middle was opened, so flanks on a larger scale should be fine.
What you don't have, is any of Crackling's concept. If you're more concerned with getting a good map than keeping the concept, you're fine. You'd then have a map which is sort of a blend of longinus, tau cross, and uh, loki maybe? It still would be an original map, however.
|yes, i'm gay|
|whattt?? you overwrited the old version :S|
plz change the nad mineral formations.
and what are those doodads at backdoor expos?
the new doodads near the nats generates tank spots.
|fuck the tankholes, noone gonna use them :p|
i found those doodads cute, so palced them at backdoor :)
|okay, nightmarjoo's suggestion smells like a normal lt-like map...|
teamliquid really like this new version, so i'll work on it :)
thank for the reps crackling, i'll take a look (oh but i may remove your doodads :P)
|Change the highround ruins!!!|
|removed a bug...1 of the minerals at|
left corner wouldnt get mined because its edge was on highground :D
anyways drones couldnt mine it but also didnt went under it :/
maybe placing the very edge of a neutral build on highground will make melee units not able to attack it but also dont get past it?
dunno how it could be used, but its a feature =D
|ok, wanted to bump this for those who like Silver Flush... this version is just BETTER :o|
|You still have to change the highground ruins :)|
|in which way?|
|Make it not so narrow :) Testbug said he was going to change it.|
yes ptar, i'll do decoration when i have finished the structure. i won't like to have to redo a docorated part :("
|plz make a paint pic and show me what you mean and i gonna do it xd|
|yeah but crackling started editing and overwriting my map. so i'll stop this|
|CARKLING MUST DEsTROY MAAAAPS AND WOOORLDS AND TETSBGU DREAMS!!111|
|Crackling is such a badass xD|
--Nightmarjoo[BA] vs BWMN)Mayhem((1on1, 1.15)
-- vs Still.life(1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Firebat]AoC[(1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Slinky.Sasuke(1on1, 1.15)
--BWMN)Mayhem( vs Nightmarjoo[BA](1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Testbug(1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Testbug(1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Testbug(1on1, 1.15)
--Crackling vs Testbug(1on1, 1.15)
--ptar vs com(1on1, 1.15)
--nb.crackling vs protoss(1on1, 1.15)
--nb.crackling vs protoss(1on1, 1.15)
--nb.crackling vs TalkALot(1on1, 1.15)
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