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Last update for (2)Heart of Firebat : 2009, 01, 22 23:28
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3246 (2)Heart of Firebat 128*96neobowman0.2betaground

The map has been rated 57 times and got a total of 14 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


neobowman
Adding doodads once the balance edits are done.
MorroW
reminds me of.. wait this is epic :DD
Capn Awesom
That was a great match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThmMmtUHMzU
(if you dont see the reference)
The main exits look interesting, at what point does it reach high ground before the ramp exit??
neobowman
Where the cliff ends, the high ground-lowground transition extends horizontally to the edge of the map. (I'm talking about the main ramps)

And if you didn't notice already, there is a firebat hero (Gui Motang) in the middle of the heart.
modified by neobowman
SiaBBo
Not good.
NastyMarine
I like all the little concepts in this msp but I think altogether, there are too many tight areas and ideas to work together good imo
MorroW
fill the map with neutral firebats that u must kill to get to places lol
Nightmarjoo
Weird. I don't like the expo layout. Map has a lot of oddities and little things which could be improved, but it's not terrible.
neobowman
Which oddities and little things could be improved?
Nightmarjoo
lol too tired tonight, and I have to get up early tomorow. I should be able to comment by tuesday though.
LasTCursE
nebowman brings very new and fresh maps.i like the map
neobowman
Wednesday and still no comment lol. Any ideas for expo locations?
illisid
maybe this would help:



fear my ms paint skills!
illisid
i left the right side for comparison.

I think for the middle platform remove that thing in the middle. make the bottom and top outside ramps move towards the center of the plateau and blend them together so the ramps are waaay wider (there is only one small break in the new ramp at the plateau)

for the sides of the map get rid of the water thing and blend the small plateau with the bottom base and move the base all the way forward (get rid of the lowground wall thingy) and remove that thing that sticks out of the bottom base and blocks the way.

and then maybe move the bottom base towards the bottom. so it cant be sniped from the middle, but still air-harrassed, and will cause less pathing problems i think (maybe?)

anyway its just a suggestion. i think it would be hard to do some of the blending of ramps, but it would make the map look much cleaner.
Nightmarjoo
Sorry neobowman, just started school and I've been a bit busy, I promise to give you a real comment soon. Keep bugging me about it though, else I'll probably forget.
JungleTerrain
FOR ILLSID'S MAP: your ramps look uber gay and the expo right below the natural looks so hard to defend

FOR NEOBOWMAN'S MAP: some of those ramps look hillbilly, and the ramps at the bottom, at around 5 and 7, the ones that are cut off, don't look ingame.
neobowman
I've made a compromise between illisid's design and my original one. I like the look of my ramps btw and the bottem ramps appear in game.

OMG teh pwnzorz paint skillz
modified by neobowman
JungleTerrain
o sorry, i typoed, i meant to say that "the ramps that are cut off, don't look good ingame, imo."
illisid
dude i used microsoft paint... i dont have time to actually fool around with scmdraft anymore .

but i like what you changed :D now lets see what the pros here think now..
modified by illisid
LML
ROFL!
NEAT IDEA:DDD
Nightmarjoo
Is the pylon heart ling tight? zlot tight? goon tight? ultralisk tight? etc.

Pathing T_T, why have the egg wall entrance at all? Not to mention you can't use it without having left your base from the main entrance anyway lol. Not the mention the pylon heart itself.

Island has way too much money for being so tight. Consider how large/open python's is, and it has only 8 blocks. Don't worry about the mains being tankable, they are large enough that it won't ever matter.

I dunno about the main corners' temple shit, why not just make a normal formation/layout?

I'm not sure you could've made the 3rd gas expo any more awkward if you tried. I think the only thing more awkward would be to make it more like geometry, and use dapixx's mineral/ramp retarded concept thing (I believe his map is no longer on the site).
Uh basically please redo the layout, structure, formation, and basically everything about the 3rd gas expo. It's just awkard. I almost reccomend throwing it onto the highground too, but that's up to you. It would make it less turtly that way I think.

lol at the min only. In 2 player maps, the min is always defensible and/or close, or non-existant. Baekdu, no min onlys. Bluestorm, min only is just outside your nat. You would be rallying there/on-the-cliff-above-it even if there was no expo at all, it's basically a gimme expo. There's never any fighting about the min only really, just harass and death dealing blows for the most part, it's a free expo, so it's min only. Blitzx, the min only is in the middle of no where, but within crucial pathing, its distance from you and your opponent make it pretty defensible, so hence it's min only. Notice also that even if these min onlys are not the natural 3rd base, they are still between the nat and a gas expo. It's just, something you take when you feel like it, when you are sure you can secure it, a freebie often in case you're struggling to keep or take the gas expos, and something to maybe turn the tide come late game. Your min only, while I guess it could be called defensible, is far out of the way, and just far really. It's also not within crucial pathing. Odds are high you'd never have to go that way without the expo being there. Also, the expo, especially for being so insignificant really, has a ridiculously large amount of space.
I dunno, pathing, structures, sizes, etc need to be modified fairly significantly for the gas expo and the min only. Also, give the min only a geyser lol. I reccomend against switching the gas from the 3rd to the 4th though.
Illisid's idea of making the formation face away from the middle directly behind it is a move in the right direction, but he axes pathing with it, so be more clever than that if you want to do something like it.

The area outside of the nat, the lowground which I can't even identify as it has literally nothing significant about it, should be a strong omen that you're not using the space as best as you could, imo. It's just, fucking there. I guess it's crucial pathing, er or will be once you start destroying pylons, but otherwise it is entirely unnecessary. Not only is it unnecessary, it's just a plain waste of space. Consider other (2)maps with similar layouts. Bluestorm, rov, blitzx, and uhhh that might be it (which alone says something). What's there in other maps? A min only in bluestorm. A gas expo in blitzx. Water in rov, and a tight lowground path which is just the most immediate path to your opponent, and which has such an extreme altitude disadvantage that you're forced to use more of the map immediately, moving to the highground etc. So uh, you could throw down an expo, maybe a min only, a gas expo, I dunno, or increase the size of the middle highground or something.

Your nats look funny to me from the pic, but they might be fine. They're a little rough for against mutas though. On the other hand, the main is like unharassable except through drops, so it might be ok.
Oh, your ovy spots suck dick (don't work). I mean, I guess you can put your ovy directly behind the gas, but I think even there it's potentially vulnerable by land, not to mention nearly functionally useless.

The two neutral expos in the middle are both in the way of pathing, further blocking already fairly sparce area. How about removing the top one, increasing the size of the middle downwards, removing the water, and placing the other expo in the crux of the lowground against the middle cliff, more or less where the other water is.
Alternatively, you could do my second suggestion, and redo the top part of the middle so that the expo doesn't block pathing. You have a lot of useless space on the lowground to work with. You could even make the top expo a mirror of what I suggested you do with the bottom one, or keep it on top, makes no difference really, up to you entirely.

Just increasing the middle'll get fairly awkward, it'll start making the paths on the sides needlessly and potentially harmfully tighter and tighter. You could completely redo the side highground things, and reposition them such that proportionately the gas expo is about where the 2nd ramp facing the 3rd gas expo is, with the current min only being proportionately more or less where the last ramp is now, maybe more to the left, I dunno. That's up to you to figure out what distances you want. This could waste some of the space on the very side edges, but you could probably do something clever with either a cliff or a small lowground path to interact with your expos or pathing respectively.
Feel free to kill the pylon heart so you have more useless space to work with. Oh and btw, the area between the heart and the highground middle neutral expo imo is incredibly retarded and awkward.

And again, please fix the islands rofl.

Hm Illisid's suggestions are heading in the right direction, but leave most the problems they attempt to correct anyway / cause new problems.


The biggest problem imo the map has is that it has no concept. So ultimately the map is just an altitude-confused custom terrain practice zone which happens to have a random pylon heart in the center. Oh, and the retarded 2nd entrance of course. Now while this is not inherently bad persay, it does result in a very simple, standard map. Now, if you're going to make a very simple/standard map, you ought to follow and mirror the features (shapes, sizes, distances, placement/position) of other standard maps. All of my suggestions have been under the assumption that you're aiming to make a largely standard map. If you don't, then I can't really help you. My suggestions have basically just tried to fix what I see are a mass of awkward features which could not just look awkward, but be potentially awkward for gameplay. I can't really say more about the map, because in my eyes there is no concept, so there is no more to the map.
Oh hm, since your map is so similar to blitzx, you should look at it more for comparing features.
neobowman
No wonder it took you so long to get a post down lol. Also, you fit around 10 words of criticism into 14 paragraphs approx. I'll get working on the map now.
Nightmarjoo
Well it only took ~15 minutes to write everything there, just a matter of getting motivation enough to actually do it.

I know it's a lot; if you need clarification / more reasoning on anything there, or if you disagree etc feel free to mention it and I'll respond more or less quickly.
illisid
ok so i played a game with my little bro, and i have to say the pathing is frustrating. Im usually ok with that, its a simple matter of waypoints. but this time the waypoints didnt work. sooo yeah i dont like the pathing. also i decided i didnt like the random highground exit from the main.
neobowman
Removed Lurker walls and made a ton of edits. I thoroughly read through all your points and I have no idea what one means but I redid the map from what I understood.
testbug
i like it :)
SpoR
nice concept.
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