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Last update for (2)Tokkanll : 2009, 08, 28 21:22
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3830 (2)Tokkanll 128*96MorroW0.5betaground

The map has been rated 20 times and got a total of 10 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


MorroW
felt like making a map, im v happy with it xd, might need some adjustments tho

~~ xD

btw my friend wanted me to call it tokkan, dont know why ^^
modified by MorroW
spinesheath
Did you intentionally make it impossible for 12 hatching zergs? The first sunken leaves the main choke wide open, it doesn't even get off a single shot if a p/t runs by.
MorroW
wow your so wrong
modified by MorroW
aeoliant
are the nats tankable on purpose? tank holes behind it and that stretch of high ground.
MorroW
u guys take me for some fucking retard? jesus

yes its made like that on purpose, anything u see here is on purpose. no accidents t,t
aeoliant
well if its on purpose, can you justify it being fair?
MorroW
whats ur rank? D-?

lol this site still only got bad gamers :< ill go inactive again
sTY_leZerG-eX
Nat 2 Nat distance 2 short imo
tktkvroom
well idk about the fact that u left the nats tankable with a path to them being a mile away might take them to long to get to it & there is alot of room there to mass turret, maybe make it less buildable

I think the 2 expos in middle are 2 close with nothing dividing them but open space

is choke to big? looks wider then a choke main to nat should be, might be hard for zeals to hold

deco could use some work
MorroW


dont see problem to be fully honest tktkvroom

ok i updated so i made the backdoor unbuildable. also the backdoor reaches in longer so units such as lurkers or possible reavers can also use this feature instead of just hts and tanks.
modified by MorroW
tktkvroom
what are those pics for? plz dont tell me of a pvz wall..................................................................................................................................................
MorroW
why not, whats the problem with it?

anyhow update coming soon with some new balances~~
tktkvroom
nothing its perfect
spinesheath
Care to tell me how I am "so wrong"?

Besides, how do you intend to get that p fe build going? No way you could get that nex before your second pylon or else it is simply gonna fall to any ling aggression. And getting that second pylon up at a location so far from the first can isn't guaranteed either.

Also looks like SCVs could get stuck behind the right geysir in the middle and (more unlikely) behind the one at 6 o'clock. Rarely, but possible. Just like on Colosseum where it happens from time to time.
MorroW
spines im not gonna dig into that issue anymore now cause of this update with the power generator

ur right about the middle geysers, ill go test them now tnx :)
spinesheath
- backdoor is not ling tight.

- right natural cannot be walled ling tight with rax 2 depots, left nat can.

- left nat has somewhat decent block for vult runby if z 3 hatches, right nat is much worse. There is no way to get a proper block with 2 hatch bos.

- an early sunk needs to cover much more of the main choke, the power gen didn't change that at all.

- make sure that you either leave no space behind the geysirs or a path around them because SCVs get stuck there in weird situations, not in normal ones, and you won't cover all those weird situations with your testing.

- I still don't get why I am "so wrong".
MorroW
ur wrong because fe:ing is no problem at all compared to other maps

made an update, quite bigger this time

i fixed the hatchery vs vult thing. tnx for pointing that out :)

i also fixed so u got same t wallin conditions on both positions, negative part is that u can wall vs toss with 1rax 1 supply now, which will be kind of a disfavour for toss. but its 2 player map and both bs2 and hbr got same so i guess that will be same

u can also see i emerged those 2 small ramps into 1 big and added a min-only with less minerals than normal
modified by MorroW
spinesheath
- backdoor is not ling tight.

Ok, note: SCMDraft doesn't display creep range properly. That tricked me into thinking that the choke was less covered than it is. Still: a sunk that is placed directly next to the hatch doesn't cover the choke properly. It also takes quite a while until the creep grows enough to place the sunk further away. On all the maps I can think of that are currently popular a sunk next to the hatch more than covers the main choke. I don't see how 12 hatch should be any easier on this map than on HBR, Medusa, Python, Bluestorm... Destination is a bit harder to judge, but it certainly is not worse.

A speed vult runby against 2 hatch seems unblockable unless you place the creep way before the vults are coming, so that you can place an evo or den close to the choke after the creep has grown.
MorroW
spines desti got same conditions, its fine trust me ^^

i tested backdoor and it is ling tight in-game even if it doesnt look so tt
spinesheath
Well, I was expecting you to say that ;) Watch the replay and learn a thing about SC's AI.

Btw, Reavers can't shoot through the backdoor, or at least I have not been able to make them shoot. You'll need a short path of walkable terrain that is more than 1/2 tile wide between the reaver and the target for the AI to even shoot the scarab. It can be blocked by a unit like a mineral patch (like on Outsider), and a building should do it as well. But then it creates path issues.
MorroW
ur replay is of an afk zerg against a comp toss

grats
spinesheath
lol

This replay proves that the backdoor is NOT ling tight, that is all.
It does not matter if the toss is bisu or a comp, and it does not matter if the zerg jaedong or just me lazily clicking around because I don't actually expect bisu to put up a good fight on such a map.

Besides, if you use the gap at the top and squeeze in a bunch of lings at the right time while having some more speedlings in the toss front of the nat, it might be deadly. I am not showing you HOW to do that, only that it could be possible.
sTY_leZerG-eX
Un playable then.
MorroW
well ur replay is bugged at least at iccup cause when i watch it ur drones doesnt even move to make a pool

i tested again and it is ling tight
modified by MorroW
modified by spinesheath
larjarse
This post is not displayed due to its content
JungleTerrain
lol

The long distances discourage rushes, plus the nat is on highground. Why are people so out of control these days?
JungleTerrain
except proxys!
spinesheath
Sooo, why the hell are you entering ICC to watch a simple replay? Wasting your own time with logging in, the much more time consuming replay selection, 5 seconds countdown...

Now I made that replay in Single Player. And guess why? Because I don't want to waste so much time harvesting until I get 200 minerals for pool and XXX minerals/gas to build a bunch of Overlords, Lings, Ling speed, hatches.

Instead, I start a Singleplayer game, type show me the money, operation cwal and have 24 lings w/ speed in no time.
I suppose you could expect me to do that to show something like a terrain issue. And then you could also expect that such a replay doesn't work in Multiplayer because obviously it would be kinda rigged if show me the money worked in Multiplayer.


If you would now drop your attitude of knowing everything just because you achieved some fame online and watch the replay again, but this time in Singleplayer, you would learn how to sqeeze units through gaps that they can pass through but don't want to pass through.
MorroW
u have outdated ver or u smoked soemthing bad man

latest ver its fixed trust me :)

i just get attitude when u guys r saying shit that isnt true at all
spinesheath
Did you still not manage to watch the replay? I just redownloaded the map and lings can still pass through. Which is not surprising as it is exactly the same map.
If you didn't watch the replay don't tell me you tested it because you didn't test it properly then.

Well, rest assured that I rarely "talk shit" when it is about technical things like these.
MorroW
thats strange

ive tested this so many times and lings couldnt run by rofl

i wont go test more ill just believe ur wrong instead
spinesheath
There, just for you, a replay on ICC since you obviously still have troubles getting the other one to work. I've even improved my ling sqeezing techniques (though far from perfection).

Also, TERRIBLE attitude for a mapmaker.

Oh, btw.:
"wow your so wrong"
MorroW
wow, i see now

i have no idea whats going on but i tested myself with that technique and it works, and quite simple and effective too!

ill try to fix it asap, tnx

when i tested the map i just tried with single lings because i had no idea about this ai stuff, i think ur one of few persons who do o,o

its funny since i became a competitive 1v1 gamer i got my mouse speed on max without the increase precision option on. so basically when i was testing in the editor "trying to squeeze in a zergling between those grey areas" it displayed on red basically because my mouse didnt accept that specific coordinate. now i zoomed in 400% and i notised i could place a zergling there

funny been so long since ive been mapping i forgot this could even happen xD

edit: updated and tnx again for ur help spines, id never find out that bug by myself i think :p
modified by MorroW
spinesheath
Good to see that you actually accept that you were wrong, I was close to actually ignoring you.

Yep, I am pretty sure that - at least in the foreign community - this knowledge isn't widespread. I actually found out about that after a comment about goons and one of the space terrain stairs doodads. Goons only walk up there if they can't move elsewhere.

I didn't have to place a ling there to see if it fits because a ling is 16x16 pixels and the gaps were 2 minitiles (1 tile = 4x4 minitiles) wide which is exactly 16 pixels.

If you watched the replay closely you can see that I used three basic techniques for ling squeezing:

1) Trap the lings from behind and simply order them to move to the other side of the gap. Very easy to pull off if you only want to get a few lings inside.

2) Form a wall of lings around the gap, but with a bit of space between the tight place and the ling wall. Then order the lings outside the wall to move between the ling wall and the gap. They will run through a second gap and try to enter through the first gap. As soon as they are trough the second gap, just move them away. This probably is the most efficient method to squeeze many lings at once through the gap, but obviously only works if there are at least 2 gaps.

3) Just using a single ling without help from any other units. This always was the hardest to pull off, but there seemed to be patterns. I think I could practice it enough to to do it consistently. The general idea is to bring the unit very close to the tight part of the gap. Then you right click on an unwalkable area on the other side of the gap and sometimes it will go through. Pretty useless though as 2 lings allow you to squeeze one ling through in no time.


About the mouse speed: You are talking about the two settings in Windows? Sure, "increase prcision" should be off (especially since it has nothing to do with precision), but I would never increase mouse speed to the max. Instead, I'd use a mouse with decent dpi and reduce the mouse speed to the point where you can barely move over the entire screen without moving your arms. Max mouse speed skips pixels as you noticed correctly, but if you do it as I suggest, you have the same hand movement, same mouse speed and better precision.
I recently bought a Logitech Mini and tried it out on my desktop, and to have halfway decent speed there I had to raise mouse speed to the max, and even on the desktop I noticed this pixel skipping which made me use the Salmosa I bought at the same time instead.


EDIT: yep that should be tight now. I also noticed that you filled the tank holes left of right's natural, but you forgot to do the same for left's natural.
modified by spinesheath
MorroW
well again i couldnt place any tanks there just like the lings^^;
anyhow i really think that should be fine

my laziness is like this because yellow-ant told me he already had enough 1v1 maps and he didnt wanna switch this one with enarey since its still new

so basically no need to map if nobody will use it xd
modified by MorroW
spinesheath
Oh he will soon enough have plenty of new maps, they just announced new promaps.
coV
Yep
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100790
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--lings vs terrain(other, 1.16)
--lings vs fetoss(other, 1.15)

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