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Last update for (3)Demons Shiver : 2010, 01, 29 11:15
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3851 (3)Demons Shiver 128*128Str18-02/Bugfix:ProTosS4EveR1.9betaground

The map has been rated 41 times and got a total of 77 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


ProTosS4EveR
Ladies and gentlemens, i present you the bugfixed version of (3)Demon's Forest.
( http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=2750 )
No more stacked vultures, failed archon warping or unability to lurkers to attack, i tested all these things.
I used the doodad in ice tileset which dims vision of the units.

and i did a sort of upgrade for this doodad,


That means there is a 30%miss rate due to highdirt doodad. I did this in order to

replace trees and keep that 30%miss rate to make closecombat units more powerful.
It's not possible to see which part of the doodad is highground and lowground.

Ice is unwalkable.

Other than, it's exactly the terrain of (3)Demon's Forest, and exactly the same positions of ressources.
modified by ProTosS4EveR
modified by ProTosS4EveR
sTY_leZerG-eX
Very nice man I love this map, super execution!
Of course u cant avoid small positional imbalances but very well done.
Only things id fix so far at first view, is the ice behind reds main, u need to add some ice doodads so that u cant put gay tanks there.
Other little thing is that u need outpost behind the red min only with the bridge and same with teal.

I give this a 9.3

And little question how do u get those pics in comments?

Good job!
ProTosS4EveR
ah damn, forgot to say that ice is unwalkable
sTY_leZerG-eX
Put it 4 MOTM il vote 4 it ;)
tktkvroom
so terran basicaly has to lose cuz they have 0 melee units? fuck im so confused
ProTosS4EveR
firebatzz
spinesheath
Terran will have to wait for a wraith/vessel/floating building.
Toss can move out safely as soon as obs are out, zerg can move early, but slow overlords are slower than buuldings, so usually scourge/muta and then speedlords will be used. I don't think that any of the usual pushes are heavily affected by this. Well, except for the early m&m pressure a terran uses to force sunkens.
modified by spinesheath
ProTosS4EveR
sunkens on the top of the ramp, i see a lot of drop here, especially with cliffable nat
Excalibur
Doodading could be heavier/better but overall it looks great. Nice way to work with a concept the Koreans couldn't perfect. Look out though, they'll be stealing this idea soon too, only with worse execution and deco.
ProTosS4EveR
well excalibur, i stole the idea from the koreans :p
tktkvroom
i just cant see this concept being ne good
ProTosS4EveR
ne = not?
LasTCursE
so basicly you just changed the tileset from badlands to ice without changing a thing in the map and you call it yours ? ^.-

btw i thought that it works simply if you put high dirt doodads but nvm :] gj
modified by LasTCursE
ProTosS4EveR
lol lastcurse you are so jalous, i never said it was mine -.-
look :
Author : Str18-02/bugfix:ProTosS4EveR
where do you see it's mine? I just fixed the bugs.

I did half lowground/half highground doodad in order to make the luck factor higher.
LasTCursE
why in the down left nat there is ice that makes it more tight? the top left is opened dosen't have that ice part :D
ProTosS4EveR
because in original version, there is a buildable bridge
tktkvroom
ne means any
& i had to do some testing to figure this map out.........so i did some testing

Still cant figure it out.
me & my friends who tested map all just came to a conclusion that it would be imbalaced because of the no visibility that would favor other races/units more then others

for example someone lost almost 2 groups of dras to 3 mines becuase u cant see them to the very last second
tanks can run staight up to the expos that have the rock shit at them & just blast them to shit b4 even knowing that there were tanks there.

mutas rule the entire rock area for cons since mutas can see across it but cons cant so b4 they get a shot off to see the muta the muta is already gone so basicaly the rocks are a dead zone for pvz if z goes muta, you're gunna have to go mass sairs >.<

also a dead zone early game tvz if t doesn't have vessel, they'd have to scan everywhere they go on rocks cuz lings can surround a group of m&m & take them down since rines can't use their range advantage

also when we went z we weren't sure of which expo to take 1st outside our ramp since niether could cover the ramp so we had to take the nat in our mains which turned things pretty hairy


i mean the list is endless of imbalances on this map.
Plz dont think of this as flame its just i never got the concept of the map b4 this one & the concept of this one
the layout is good just except for the nat being out of reach of the ramp.

I think u can make this map better then the one b4 this one
lMPERVlOUS
This is awesome.

It's another take on a semi-island-style map. Air control is necessary, or else ground units become useless. And this version is much better than the original.
spinesheath
Does that doodad actually block vision even if you don't alternate high and lowground?


take ovies with your hydras. This map obviously requires good unit management/positioning, but for every race.

mass sair against mass muta is not unusual. In the current builds you always have a few corsairs to help against templar snipes. Also, a few sairs give you enough vision, no need to mass them. As soon as an obs is out you are fine too.

There usually is only one push before vessel tvz. That one will not work well or not at all. But there always is the option to go mech or 2 port. If you go mech, vult drop is a good option on this map, as the dropship can be used for sight.

The 3rd expo might be hard to defend for zerg, but then again terran doesn't want to move out until vessel, at which time the 3rd gas should be safe enough. Especially if you didn't have to sunk up against an early push.

Against mutas/tanks on the rocks, place observers there. You shouldn't be surprised that this map requires heavy use of observers.


If you attempt to play this map just like any other map you obviously will fail. The terrain forces all races to adapt, in every matchup. There is no way to tell if this map is imbalanced or not without mass testing and developing new builds specifically for this map.
ProTosS4EveR
"Does that doodad actually block vision even if you don't alternate high and lowground?"
Yes
larjarse
This is very exceptional work.
larjarse
I just wish it can look a little prettier than that rock doodad spam.
ProTosS4EveR
gameplay> prettyness
MorroW
wouldnt hurt to add a few "normal" doodads here and there, and maybe some sprites

looks really ugly xd

and about the map, really imba but i like the foggy idea
Moebius
Very ugly, but the gameplay is definitely unique. Not really a fan of the nat not defending the ramp though.
modified by Moebius
spinesheath
if it does block vision already, I wouldn't add the hit chance thing on top of that. Any avoidable randomness should be removed.

Also, if you alternate between high and low you could also use almost any terrain that looks similar on low and highground, as that should block vision too.

Actually I wonder if that doodad is simply broken, having high and lowground tiles by default. Guess I should test that...
ProTosS4EveR
ah forgot to say one step of my feature, i converted doodads to terrain, that's how i made these half doodads
it doesn't crash ingame
spinesheath
Well, that goes without saying.
I just don't remember any properties in any important section of a map file that indicates vision block. Then again there has to be something or else those trees wouldn't work.
ProTosS4EveR
The original doodad, without anything changed
Image hébergée par servimg.com
I think only this doodad has this property, i don't know how it works<
modified by ProTosS4EveR
larjarse
blizz probably wanted the effect as if you can't see past the rock, and if you're behind the rock, you have a less chance of getting hit
spinesheath
They just messed up. If you take a closer look at the new tilesets and their properties you will see that Blizzard was extremely sloppy with them.
It wouldn't make sense that you can't see past it when it looks so flat.
crackling
i think this is fucking awesome
neobowman
Just you wait, Mapdori mappers are going to come, steal the concept, and get all the credit in some new pro map.
LasTCursE
nobody comes in this site xD
neobowman
How do you explain all the other stolen concepts? Neutral spells, Beast's backdoor (more of my grudge than actual fact), Indignations low highground (again, just a grudge) amoung others.
LasTCursE
they are koreans they just figured it out them selfs :D
Nightmarjoo
Use null tiles under the neutrals to fix pathing instead of those ugly things.

I like it, gonna post it on tl.
Nightmarjoo
o you already posted it
LasTCursE
hey marjoo if i put a neutral building somewhere and the untis get stuck in it.. if i put null tiles under them..
1:will the pathing issue be fixed
2:will the null apear in the game
3:can units walk over the nulls when they break the building :)
ProTosS4EveR
the null tile used by mapghost and lancet was a special one, only on this only you were able to build, move units. Other null tiles are like water
the null tile will appear under the neutral building.
and if you manage to destroy a khaladrin cristal in melee, you rule the world
LasTCursE
i'm not talking about a crystal some else like a power gen ? so would it fix pathing issue ?

where can i find that special null ?
modified by LasTCursE
spinesheath
If a tile blocks pathing (aka fixes path issue) when a building is on top of it, it also blocks pathing when there is no building on top of it. So it will still be unwalkable.

Null tiles are not like water, because creep can extend over null tiles (at least all the tiles I ever used), and some weird things can happen because of that.
larjarse
UMS sniper arena integrated with melee play

I do believe, however, that PVZ, sair+reaver will dominate and is therefore imbalanced for this terrain.
JungleTerrain
you need high apm for sair+reaver, hard to pull off for most people, so I wouldn't worry too much :P
JungleTerrain
and sair+reaver is already imbalanced.
ProTosS4EveR
Just noticed that this map was played in TL Arena II
Zerg didn't noticed that there is a backdoor =(
But players shew that they would go air.
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