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|I decided to make something different.|
Both nats has gas, but the closest one can protect your main entrance a little bit, but the other don't. There's also a route behind the first nat, so it's dangerous and there's a cliff. Less ressources in the safer expo. You can drop the 3rd gas expand where theres no way to build turrets or cannons, or you can always use the cliff to kill the expo. Mineral only is hardy defendable where is the little choke, ( unbuildable ) and middle give you acess with 2 bridges. I might put the first expand closer so it covers very well the ramp. :|
|first nat have also a very wide choke|
|Hey trcc :)|
Ok, that map is really different. but i wanted to say that you should not give a shit on what other say and do your stuff. I like almost all of your maps even if some say "they all look the same", that's just because all are built on a really good basis.
Anyway, this maps looks interesting.
What i like is the natrual in fron of the choke. It's a bit beside the entrance, but you can still cover it, that's cool. A well it is harder to take because of the wider entrance leading towards this natural, but that's just good because you get a free small gas-expansion if you cover your nat. That seems fair, but if it really is, well, that should be checked by playtasting i'd say.
next thing i like is the position f the min-only behind the bridges, you "might" add another min-only in front of the bridges as well, but as the map is now, that would be to much. Just in case you change something completely ;)
The "backyard" gas expansion is neat, but the possibility to simply drive a tank there to kill the enemies expansion might me a bit unfair. Sure, you just keep the enemy from gaining minerals for a short time (till he gets a dropship) because you can`t build turrets to defend your tank against drops there. But anyway, it might be to much.
- I'd delete the gas in the smaller-gas-natural, because there is just to much gas for zerg around now, especially on startup.
- and i would change the ground leading behind the enemys natural eco-line to a low groun cliff maybe. i think it's good as it is now and your idea behind this is very clear. If you change it, well, wait for some more comments or testgames.
Anyway, even when this map isn't quite your style (imo) its well done and i really like all little details and ideas behind it, i'll download it now :) gj
|Oh, when the tank only reaches the mineral line, not the HQ there, then it's good imo.|
|This is really an innovative map, great pro-point :>|
As it seems to be the hell imbalanced at first glance, one will remark that you'll just have to play a different style.
I'll try to sum up my thoughts a bit, though I have to admit that I am not used to do it talking about maps so elementary out of the box.
Regarding the starting bases, there is terran definetely favoured. He can quite fast expand to his choke-natural (gas expo) and he has neither problems defending it so he'll be able to take the gas expo in the back quite soon.
Though, he is quite disfavored on the rest of the open map, because there is a lot of empty space.
Still, the road to the enemy's main is not that large, so PVT could become quite a problem here, because with 3 gas expansions, p won't be able to do anything against a wellmade push.
Not to talk about the problem of taking more expos than a terran on THIS map.
Zerg should be quite strong in the beginning, for he can use a 3hatch-build for gaining 3 gas expansions which would burst zerg possibilities concerning higher, gas-expensive units.
Though, I don't consider PVZ a major problem because a protoss got his 3 gas expansions as well which means a lot of gas for HT/dt/arch.
Anyway, it should be hard to keep up with zerg, but if you can manage this, you've got a real chance to win.
TVZ is dangerous for the zerg imho. Terran is very agile here, too and could catch the zerg when he is trying to expand too fast. Regarding the battles/major fights, I consider zerg having the major advantage, because the zerg can (as mobile as he is) use the opportunities to sourround terran.
The expansions in the back of the main bases are certainly the best for terran. T is _the only_ race that can make the expo safe against drops. turrets and 1-2 tanks on the cliff would make it.
Protoss could do this at least in little scale, zerg can't.
So I think that despite the very unusual mapdesing the map can be a balanced one, and actually it is not far away from that.
But to be honest, at the moment I consider this still a terran map. Early 3 gas expansions, the one in the back of the main also good for terran, 2 (incredible effective) possibilities on "cliffing" enemy's direct natural, a good chance to push with this many expansions as backup.
So I'd say, until you change something, there is T>all.
I'm not perfectly sure about p and z, but I think it is balanced extremly good, because both have their weaknessess. The mass of units zerg can lead into battle can be answered by the unusual high amount of gas for protoss. So he should be able to cope with higher tech-units of zerg. Zerg can take his expansions earlier, but toss got the one in the back HE, on the other hand can better save, and zerg will have a problem to get 1-2 expansions MORE as protoss.
If you manage to weaken T without doing damage to the PVZ balance, this would be a really cool map for it is DIFFERENT :>
Yet, take my comment on top: I am not used to play those maps, so I cannot prove all I say, this is just theory.
|Wow thanks for replying :O I could remove the cliff of the gas expo behind main, and add more rocky ground and also remove the little cliff near first nat. What about a low ressources gas in first nat, like 2500 or something? I wanted to give a chance to have an expand which covers your base entrance, but in fact it's hard to protect and hold(back entrance), large choke.. |
i need to do lurker tests to see if they can reach the workers & ranged units. Sorry if my english is very bad :P It is hard to explain what i mean. It was a good read Listoric and flothefreak =)
|Flanking ground is only really important for tvp, the other matchups are more focused on the players bases. In TvZ, zerg looks like being in trouble if he tries to make a classic FE in front of the base. Fortunatly, he has a backwards gasexpo, that is where he should expand. The obvious counter for that would be getting drop for the terran. So zerg should go muta most of the time. So it's a bit like on LT, where going lurker may be considered cheese, zerg has a light disadvantage in this MU, but it's okay imo.|
TvP and PvZ look good balance wise to me.
|Why would going lurker be considered cheese on LT ;o? Terrans wont tank drop on LT 99.9% of the time :P|
Anyhow, at 6 you can fit in 4~ cannons, while at 12 you can fit in more than 6 (talking about the backyard expansions)... Maybe balance this out somehow.
Second, on this map there's 0 neutral gases, the only neutral expansions are easily tankable and both gas expansions are tankable..
I'd say T is gonna have a walk in the park playing this map. See, first of all they'll get 2 expansions for free, then a 3rd which they'll be able to defend quie comfortably, hell they can even afford parking a substantial part of their army there to counteract drops as they'll be able to tank your nat while doing so.
Then you give them a free second gas in the backyard expo, which is going to be very bad vs P since they can basically just upgrade at will and yeah, just turtle until 200 and 3-3 while preventing you from doing anything/getting more expansions than them because the only neutral ones are easily within reach of a push.
TvZ might be okay I suppose, T requires quite a bit more defence to protect their expansion at 6 than vs P, especially since bunkers take up a lot more space than turrets. A T shipping over 2 dropship loads of units from their natural unto your backyard might be problematic though, the area is so big and it's hard to make a proper sunken line there.
So yeah, zerg should probably 2 hatch muta or something, not sure if 3 hatch muta would be fast enough to stop the ferrying.
Hm, I also think that P>Z on this map since there's no neutral gas expansions and P can easily secure 3 expansions of which 2 have a gas node..
One thing which I think might make PvZ even though is the size of the backyard exapnsion, mass probably will work quite well (though at 12 I'm sure 6+ cannons along with some templars could hold off quite a lot of units..).
|Should be mass drops in the last paragraph ;p|
|Here's what i did..|
1. Removed gas of first nat, but also removed the path behind that could be used to kill expand.
2. removed the cliff surrounding backyard expand//added more rocky ground, space instead.
3. Widen the path leading to mineral only in middle.
4. Added more doodads
|Hmm.. it looks good. |
I wonder if 3 +0,65 expansions are enough for each player. (maybe just because i played on Mudbowl 53 minutes and got out of resources :/)
|3 +0,65 = ??? i don't understand. :P|
For ressources, i don't think it is a problem.. Main = 8
first nat = 8
2nd nat = 6
backyard expo = 7
min only = 8
Why would going lurker be considered cheese on LT ;o? Terrans wont tank drop on LT 99.9% of the time :P
If they know you go lurker, they will.
And trcc, even me as a german does not understand what listoric means by 3+0,65^^
|perhaps he meant 3 expos and 0,65 expo?|
like a little bit more than 3½ expoes? :)
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